Learjet,

Well said. Couldn't agree more. How is it possible they actually can take away longevity?

Just vote no.

Eric
Jan 2000 hire

Look. I am not going to argue with every swinging *** here about this TA. It's not eye watering, GREAT. But it is adequate and in many ways industry leading. It should pass as it did both MECs

Reminds me of an old joke: The neg chair says " in our new contract, we only work on Wednesdays. Any questions?"

A line pilot raises his hand....." You mean we have to work EVERY ####### Wednesday???!!!"

Sled

I think that's actually already in there.

Your weak and would vote for anything. Just like many others on this property.

Dont you *** roll over cause u got a small pay raise!!

You will b below deltas and life will suck especially when inflation eats your tiny raise!!

I guess you answered my question. "It's not eye watering, GREAT. But it is adequate and in many ways industry leading"

You are what's wrong with United.......... the worst part is I know who you are and have known you for many years! Thanks Jason.......

LearJet Driver

1 month and we get another offer....if we are brave enough to send this back.

Reduced Longevity
 

I'm not saying that this MEC doesn't take special pride in sticking it to the early 2000 hires, but I've read the section in the TA and don't see how our longevity can be reduced. The section addresses adding longevity credit for time spent on furlough but the "application of such additional credit" is capped at the level of the next most senior sCAL pilot.

We know we'll get sold out again in the SLI and I was hoping to at least get recouped in years for pay, but I'm still not seeing how longevity gets reduced. If I'm wrong, then you can count me in as one more contributor to the law suit.

Gypsy

Just out of curiosity, what would first year pay be?

Who are you? You sound like the silly wife that's in love with the shiny chrome and smooth leather seats on a piece of crap Yugo. You can't be serious.

I've read that section too. Granted it takes a lawyer to understand a lot of this, but I read it the same way as Gypsy. Your longevity pay won't be reduced but any additional longevity credit you get won't go above the sCAL pilot senior to you. A question to be asked at the road show, not that it should decide the outcome since the rest of the TA is a joke already.

It mentions in the contract about one movable reserve day, but then says global reserve has 6 immovable golden days off. What is the difference between basic reserve and global reserve? And the difference between one movable reserve day and 6 immovable golden days off? Are these two different types of reserve? Thanks.

bah bah bah!

basic reserve is 50 us, mx, can, carrib, northern s america, and cent america. global reserve is everything but. trying to be fancy with domestic and international

Something needs to be clarified. It says that express block hours are tied to narrow body single aisle A/C at DOS. So as UAL parks 757s and potentially Busses the Express block hours will not be reduced because their block hours are based on ours at DOS. that's how I read it.

I still have not seen the Retro/ Signing Bonus part. Any details on that?

As i read it. The 757 and 320 retirements should be offset by 737 deliveries. If, however the company accelerates aircraft retirement creating less mainline block hours, the number if rj's (block hours) need to be reduced accordingly. This is a great provisions because is keeps the company from shrinking mainline domestic block hours and supplementing the flying with rj's.

It's in the loa's at the end of the contract. From the looks of it, ual mec did a good job of splitting their pot, cal not so much.

Been there done that. The lawsuit you speak of will be far longer and much more expensive both financially and emotionally than a simple "NO" vote and lot's of lobby on your parts to send this back. Not to mention the fact the most experienced team in the business is already retained by sCAL.

You are dead right, this sets you guys up to be the recipients of the worst seniority injustice in the history of mergers. The good news is you'll go junior to some of the most self serving little smart-aleck weasel nosed back stabbers in the industry (fast tracked Xjeters) if this passes. I think I may be a NO vote just on behalf of how bad the UALfurlough guys get raped. Then again my hunger strike for women's rights never really gained much momentum...

Excuse my ignorance, are you referring to XJT guys hired after the UAL furloughees?

Correction on Longevity
 

Gypsy is correct. Got a call from the LAX LEC chair and he amended his statement.

the longetivity credit is limited, not actual longevity. They use the date of 5/6/08, so basically 4 1/2 years of longevity. You can be credited longevity if you have less than 4 1/2 years actual, but only up to 4 1/2 years. If you have more than 4 1/2 years actual longevity (say you have 6), then it looks like we will not get any credit. Nowhere do I see that we will be limited in actual pay longevity to 4 1/2 years. You get what you have.

In addition, it appears this credit limit last only until an SLI is in place, when additional longevity credit can be given beyond that given at Date of Signing, "...provided further that the application of such additional credit does not result in any s-United pilot having a pay longevity date that is earlier than the pay longevity date of the next most senior s-Continental pilot."

Thanks for the reserve question answer EWR73FO.... I appreciate it!

Oops, did I say that out loud? but yes some of that group. What may be 5% of any other group seems to be 30% of this demoG... They are however maturing as many are now getting married and having kids, taking care of some responsibilities etc... but there are more than a few that still live with mom and dad...

I see

there are quite a few great Ex-Express guys over at CAL, but like you mentioned, some not so great. I just thought you referring to every ex-XJT guy,

Thanks for looking in to this. With all we've been subjected to, the thought of our union taking what little longevity we have left was too much to bear.

Gypsy

The signing bonus on the CAL side is in essence a B scale distribution. If you were the highest paid before this JCBA, you will get the biggest bonus. If you were the lowest paid, you will essentially get a POS bonus.

Another sell out of the newest guys on the CAL payscale. You'll probably see widebody CAs get $80,000 while FOs that were making $30-50K during this time period get around $5-10K.

Grats scab WB CAs.

Basic vs global...Basic is primarily domestic reserve (320,737 and maybe 757 depending on how the fleet is utilized). Any reserve in a Base/Eqp/Seat that does not fly south of Lima in South America will be considered Basic. Global is any BES that flies south of that (EZE etc) or transatlantic/pacific. This cannot be magically adjusted by crew scheduling.

There are so many concessions and gotchas contained in this POC, that it ought to be a slam dunk NO vote for MOST of us. I'm astonished at how bad this thing is.

Sled, as for the "gets" in this TA, I submit that you're picking corn out of something warm and steamy. I don't even know what to say, so I won't waste any time with your opinion. Have a great career.

As for the TA

The pay is marginal.
The scope is a show stopper. Ever see an RJ in SWA colors?
The retro is completely unacceptable and an insult.
The reserve rules SUCK. 2.5 hours? In DC? In NYC? In SFO? LAX?
Involuntary JM - nope. They need more bodies? Hire them.
Increased Medical and Dental costs. Concessionary.
The training pay is a joke.
VACA pay is concessionary.
Add on reassignments
etc
etc
etc

Its up to US now that the JNC has failed us so completely. Get out the NO vote.

7B in unrestricted cash. The only thing "industry leading" was the hubris with which this was unveiled.

Sign me up! It's also nice to know that a junior guy who never even finished his/her probation year at UAL in 08' will now be valued exactly the same as a twice furloughed UAL guy hired 12 or 13 years ago! What is wrong with our Union? This is unbelievable! NO Way!

You have no clue what a pilot is worth! You should look around the world and at other domestic carriers. To settle for those rates even with the 16% is a slap in the face. You've been brainwashed! I even hate to say it, but the flight attendants at my previous employer (corp) make more than that!

I'm an outsider, but I'm still curious. How was the distribution decided?

Where does it say that express would be reduced? Maybe I missed it. I will never go along with something that "should happen". It has to say it "will happen"

So you don't wanna argue with every **** on the forum? Then stop with this "solid B" contract B.S.

As James mentioned above, there is so much wrong with this contract that only a sucker would think it a "B". I don't give a rats ass about stuff related to training pay or crew meals. I DO give a damn about reserve work rules, longevity credit for furloughee pay purposes and above all SCOPE.

Apparently, you must not be able to see any of these issues from your back yard.

Thanks for nothing, 'brother'.

SCR

I guess I need to look at this from a normal computer and not my IPad. I can't view the entire document.

A good job of splitting the pot, sorry but it doesn't matter when the pot is too small, our mec didn't do a good job on anything here.

I lurk here occasionally but don't post much. This TA has me hot enough to post something. There is a lot of crap in it, plenty enough for me to vote no from what I have read already. The clincher was this little doozy:

20-I-10 Step Six (Telephone Inverse Assignment, With Conflict).
A Trip shall be assigned by telephone to a Lineholder in the same Category as the Trip who shall require a schedule repair after receiving the assignment. Such Lineholder shall receive,
at time of assignment, Add Pay equal to 100% of the Trip’s pay value. A Lineholder given such assignment is expected to accept and fulfill the assignment. If the Lineholder is unable to accept and fulfill the assignment, he may be required to provide a reason for his unavailability to a flight manager.

I've been with UAL 17 years now and still remember how they used to abuse the JRM system at the commuters I worked for before. Why should you have to live in fear of answering the phone? You shouldnt have to screen messages in case they call from unknown numbers, and you damn well should not have to explain your unavailability on your day off to a flight manager. If you think that you can avoid it by not answering your phone, think again. The company will send someone to meet your incoming flight and tell you in person that you are being junior manned. The company will short staff reserves knowing that they can always JRM if it comes down to it.

This is a NO go item for me.

While all of you are thumping your chests and looking to see what's between your legs I have just spent over 3 hours reviewing the actual agreement and the info on the ALPA web site.

Is it a "sales job?" In no way would I consider it that at all. In fact my reps (two out of three voted yes) identify the difficulty of the TA and voted after careful consideration to pass it on to us.

On the ALPA site you will find the actual words of the contract, include the kind of retro bonus distribution methods (CAL's is different than UAL's).

My observations:

Most of the work rule changes are minor improvements for the LUAL pilots. The most onerous is the changes giving the ability to move days off when on reserve. Limited to 1 domestic and more for International. But, there is a compensating ability to establish holy days each month that can not be touched by the crew desk.

The CAL side seems to have retained the ability to fly and get paid for "soft" time and up to 1000 hours annually hard time. Something new to LUAL.

The pay increases is less than many want, but this TA adds the ability (something for LUAL) for "premium pay."

Improved rules and language on layovers, times, hotels and transportation.

The LUAL MEC has developed an extremely fair system of decided how much each individual pilot will get of the retro-bonus funds.

The early out program will give an incentive to those with 60 months or less before retirement to leave.

Scope appears to be more restrictive on the LUAL side, but obviously not so for the LCAL side.

The furlough credit issue has me a bit pondered. It was my impression that credit for pay longevity was based only on time actually accrued on property prior to involuntary furlough. The agreement seems to address the issue of the ISL and what ifs when a more senior DOH is merged with the more Jr. CAL pilot.

Overall it is a net positive contract for LUAL and more so for LCAL pilots, but is it enough for many? According to you shouters it isn't. I can live with that and if it fails, but can you if it passes?

Go read the actual contract and thank your Reps for all their hard work, regardless of how you vote.

UFB
ignore list

You are 100% correct, this is standard ops on the LCAL side right now. We'll teach you how to play the game. ;)

Now scope..............................NO WAY.

liquid

20-K-6-f-(3) Example: A Short Call Reserve whose assignment begins at 0600 and ends at 2000 may be released from the assignment at 0700 and given a flying assignment that reports at 1700.

Not sure if you have even read the entire document.. (I've read it once, on my 2nd read through now)

Not sure if you're good at Math, but the above allows for 10 (yupe.. TEN) hours between "reserve assignments", not to mention the "Double Pump" that we were told was a no go item.

NO

Motch