missintheline

<<Nobody LOSES longevity. >>

Furlough time credited for longevity: Some get all, all get some, but many get little.

Aug 2000 hire: furloughed Nov 2001 1 yr, 3 months

Recalled Nov 2006; furlough letter with gold star in lieu of second award, Apr 2009. 2 yrs 5 months

3 yrs 8 months on the property; 8 years, 7 months on furlough.

LOA Bonus Maximus (Bone Us actually) says that 11 months of my 103 months on the street (10.6%) count but the other 89.4% of my life on the outside doesn't count. How can that make sense? Either all furlough time counts for everyone or none of it counts for anyone.

I surmise that this is a setup to craft a rationale to staple us behind every UCAL pilot; Should that happen I then end up furlough fodder and on 5th year pay instead of well further up on the list on 12th year pay should all furlough time count and DOH be used on the ISL (haha), or at least furlough fodder on 12th year pay if I get jammed in the ISL but get full furlough credit for pay purposes.

The pragmatist in me sees that this isn't a make or break issue for many, but it should at least count as a negative when you are weighing the pros and cons of this contract.

datake

Not true. A large majority are guys and gals that have worked previously for United for a period of 2 - 8 months. They were on probation pay and returned on 1st year pay. Then out of the goodness of the CAL and UAL MEC's, they were given longevity credit for those 2-8 months of service so as to avoid working an entire year before moving to second year CAL pay. Now with this TA, they gain another huge windfall-80%-100% credit for time spent on furlough. Happy for them, but how can one group get something that they were not contractually entitled to and another group (99-01hires) get completely left out. The way it is written we will only get credit for time actively working. Also, until SLI, a guy who has 2 months of previous active service will be paid exactly the same as the guy who has 2 furloughs behind him and 7.5 years of active service. Who thinks this stuff up? Please support the pending lawsuit.

jsled

Oh, I get the issue. I also know WHY this was done. We can all vote no on the TA because of this carveout, but it will not change. I have sat in IAH and listened to Eric explain the CAL MEC position on LOA 25. They are convinced it would put them at a disadvantage for the SLI. Just like pay banding, it was a must win item for them. That will not change.

How many years of longevity for pay credit does the most senior furloughed CAL guy get? I bet it's not near as many as our 99 hires would receive if they got full credit. Just sayin.

A 40% pay raise will help the sting.

Sled

jsled

That is not true. A 7.5 year guy will get 8th year pay. A 2 month guy will get 5th year pay.

Sled

PS. I will support the lawsuit

datake

Sled, you are wrong! Not until SLI and that could potentially be a year from DOS. Here is an example from the MEC update:

Scenario 3: Twice-furloughed pilot now working at CAL. Three years UAL, then another two years UAL, and 1.5 years at CAL.

At Date of Signing, the pilot will be adjusted to 4 years 7 months of longevity for pay purposes at CAL. This longevity will be improved after SLI by combining his UAL and CAL longevity. Additionally, for pay it may be improved by the SLI process as described in Scenario 2 above. This UAL furloughee working at CAL is considered a “CAL pilot” but is pay protected at his UAL pay rate. That pilot will see a potential increase in pay longevity to 5th year TA rates if the new rate is higher than the previous protected rate. After the completion of the ISL a second adjustment of his pay longevity will be computed to account for his time on furlough. This added pay longevity will be capped so as to not exceed the longevity of the CAL pilot just senior to him on the ISL. This pilot will NOT lose any longevity and can only improve upon his 6.5 years of longevity for pay. After ISL this pilot’s full earned longevity (CAL plus UAL) will apply.

And notice they don't even use a good example. We have guys who have over 7 combined years with UAL and time at CAL who will be paid at 4.7 years until SLI. Might not be looked at as a bid deal because it's a pay raise over the old protected United rate. However, it definitely doesn't allow for any further credit for time on furlough. Now, why then, did they generously give credit for time on furlough to the majority of the CAL guys and all of the 07-08 UAL hires? I guess it was just out of the kindness of their hearts.

Coto Pilot

Thanks, that's how I understood it as well. I was at seven year pay at UAL, with another year at CAL. I will go to the new 5 year pay upon signing and that may increase after SLI, depending on how badly I get screwed, but I will not get 12 year pay like the CAL guys. This will also negatively impact our retro payment as well as vacation for years to come.

Old UCAL CA

Taken another way, other than the 4.7 adjustment, not allowing inactive (furloughed) time to become a factor in ISL determination is not a negative, it is positive, IMHO. Longevity credit indirectly adjusts furlough time. For practical purposes, active time only becomes an ISL consideration, for all pilots.

I would have preferred no adjustment at all prior to ISL. No contract is perfect. The 4.7 adjustment probably captured a few "yes" voters in the sUAL group at CAL.

Contrary to popular belief, negotiations are extremely expensive. It is a 50% plus one game for all parties involved (CAL MEC, UAL MEC, UCH). I'm certain all three would like to be done with this.

jsled

I am not wrong. At least from what I have read AND been told by my LEC reps. That example you used has been refuted by other FAQs. Here is the paragraph. It is pretty clear.

4. Pay Longevity Credit for Furloughees
Upon date of signing, any pilot who is, or previously was, furloughed and whose accrued pay longevity is less than that of pilots hired on or before 5/6/08 shall receive additional pay longevity credit for time spent on furlough, but only to the extent that such credit does not provide a pay longevity date prior to 5/7/08.........

Meaning, if you have more longevity AT UAL than 4.7 years, you will not receive additional credit prior to SLI, but you will not lose the longevity that you have. But please, don't take my word for it. Call your reps or go to a Town Hall Meeting.

Sled

From the FAQs:

This paragraph has nothing to do with SLI. It is only about longevity for pay. Neither pilot group offers a credit for furlough time for pay purposes today. This brings all furloughed or previously furloughed pilots with less longevity than 5/7/08 back to that date for pay purposes right away, rather than waiting for the outcome of the seniority list integration. Without paragraph 4, United Furloughees would enter the SLI process with potentially LESS longevity (but nobody will lose ANY longevity actually earned - the only thing the para. 4 credit can do is INCREASE pay longevity).....

The pre-SLI bump is just an interim step. It takes you up to 5/6/08 pay longevity (only up, your longevity is NEVER decreased). Then, at SLI we will add all the furlough longevity we can, but not so much as would take you past the next senior CAL pilot. That might be zero, but in no case would a UA pilot's longevity be reduced, ever.

Old UCAL CA

Sort of....any sUAL pilot with less than 4.7 years active service (longevity) will have his time initially credited for 4.7 years at signing, then additional credit after ISL for those with more inactive furlough time, not to exceed the pay longevity credit of the sCAL pilot immediately his senior, whichever is less.

In other words, pay longevity credit will not become a factor in ISL determination and...a sUAL pilot pay longevity credit will not exceed the next most senior sCAL pilot on the ISL. This applies to "was" or "is" furloughed pilots only.

jsled

False. A pilot's longevity will never decrease. A furloughed pilot with more than 4.7 years of active service will not be adjusted down to 4.7 years of credit. They do not lose longevity. Period.

Sled

again, from the FAQs:

The pre-SLI bump is just an interim step. It takes you up to 5/6/08 pay longevity (only up, your longevity is NEVER decreased). Then, at SLI we will add all the furlough longevity we can, but not so much as would take you past the next senior CAL pilot. That might be zero, but in no case would a UA pilot's longevity be reduced, ever.