I'm not knockin' you for your opinion here but it's time for the lual pilots to step up and own their **** here. This load of crap about how the injustices that exist at lual are jp's fault is really making you sound like a a whiny-ass crack ***** in rehab. Man-up and take some responsibility for whats going on in your own house. Fix your **** and quit trying to look for a scapegoat cause things ain't going your way or your guys continually suck ass.

Look. I voted no but should this lump pass, so be it. I'm not happy with it, but I not going to sit here and **** in my beer and blame the next 5-10 years of this contract on you and every other lual pilot.

Shouldn't there be some finger pointing at Jay H? He is your MEC. Pierce is handling the CAL pilot's concern. What has Jay H. done for you?

Ummmm.... Forced the NMB, Jay Pierce, and Lee Moak to put enough pressure on the company to get us a TA?

So very eloquently put. :rolleyes:

I'm stating nothing but simple facts. If you have an example of how you were "wronged" by Jay H., please feel free to post away. I'll be MORE than happy to lay 50% of the blame of us not having a contract right at the very beginning of this merger (with equity, BTW) at the UAL MC at the time, Wendy Morse. In my opinion, she and Jay Pierce TOTALLY dropped the ball by allowing the DOJ to rule on the merger without pilot influence on the hill. As for the other "injustices" at L-UAL, most of those have absolutely NOTHING to do with Jay P., and I never suggested they did. I merely pointed out:

1) Pay banding
2) LOA 25
3) Side negotiations for profit sharing in direct violation of the TPA
4) 11th hour reversal of previous agreed to retro distribution

are all products of Jay Pierce and directly harm the L-UAL pilot group. Sorry if that hurts your delicate sensibilities, but they did actually happen.

That being said, in a way, the ineptitude of those 2 "leaders" actually worked in our favor. If we had gotten a TA before DAL's new contract, it would have been WOEFULLY inferior to the one we are voting on now.

Oh, so it's ok for your Jay to look out for UAL guys and make things happen but not for my Jay to do this for Cal?

Aaand again. I'm asking you for an example of something that Jay Heppner did to specifically advance L-UAL's pilot group at the expense if the L-CAL pilot group.

Its what we hire them to do. But I think that anybody can plainly see that all these issues took place after the merger was announced and that any reasonable mediator or arbitrator is going to take all this into account because they can see the dynamics of this regarding three party negotiations, etc.

All the arbitrators and mediators will be able to see the posturing and what was trying to be accomplished prior to ISL that it's not going to matter.

They are going to follow the merger policy and none of the things that were negotiated will affect this.

We are going to get whatever they give us, and very little we do now is going to affect that. Try reading some of the other cases (most are non airline) where this was done, and these people recognize all the pre-negotiation manipulations and it gets thrown out.

Never said anything about this. Jay H is not a blameless leader as well. Wait until the SLI hate and finger pointing will get even worse and I feel confident if your leader could throw L-CAL under the bus for L-UAL, he will. I am slowly hearing the DOH drum beginning to beat.

Btw...if you credit your Jay for this bringing about this TA and it passes (will mostly on your side) then it will be at the expense of Cal pilots in my opinion. Much more hurt than the longevity issue.

I was merely answering your question with a question. If you are saying Jay is to "blame" for something that is detrimental to the L-CAL side, I'm simply asking you what that is. I'm not familiar with anything specific. I listed 4 things that Jay Pierce has done to advance his pilot groups standing in the ISL (which I think will probably be worthless anyway) at the expense of the L-UAL pilots. That's calling a spade a spade. If you have a similar example put forth by "our Jay", then I'm all ears.

Your opinion on the merits of the TA are noted. I disagree, and think that in this day and age it's a good agreement. There are some very strong improvements for L-CAL pilots in the deal, in work rules, B/C fund, etc. etc. The pay isn't as big a jump as it is for L-UAL pilots, and I can see how you would be frustrated with the Scope clause (though I hear a L-CAL SME gave a impassioned speech in EWR defending his assertion that the Scope in the TA is better than what you have now. I wasn't there, so I can't confirm this). If the L-CAL pilots think the leverage is there to get a deal that is better, then a "No" vote would be appropriate for you. Just remember, it has to be $1.3 million a day richer just to break even. Any improvements would have to be on TOP of that. And, like it or not, there is value to the L-UAL pilots for the airplanes and growth to be accessible to everyone, not just one side at the expense of the other. Remember, however, that Jay Pierce and 7 of the 11 CAL MEC reps support this deal, so they must have heard something in "ground school" that made them agree with my assertion that this is a good agreement.

Lastly, I haven't heard one pilot on the L-UAL side saying that they think DOH is the way the SLI will/should go. If you are hearing that rumor, then I'm unaware of the source. If you hear it from an actual UAL pilot, ask them if they would still think it appropriate for the merger to go DOH if we had merged with USAirways instead.

I expect "our Jay" to put forth his best case for the L-UAL pilots when the SLI is being argued. At that point, I will have no problem with "your Jay" doing the same. Then the chips will fall where they may. The issue I have is that Jay Pierce has poisoned the waters several times during the JCBA process, which was supposed to be independent of the SLI argument. That is inappropriate and in poor form in my estimation, and results in complaints from the effected L-UAL pilot group.

Sorry. Shouldn't drink heavily and post.