here at United
 

Man spending years at the regional and now coming on property here has really been unbelievable! reading all these threads about our company makes me feel like I'm flying at a regional again. Everything so far (except for the 737 training and the super unintuitive ccs program) has been great. I really enjoy the crews I fly with and trips I fly. All you new guys coming on are gonna love it!

Sincerely,

Bob

Bob, I'm starting class in a week. Just curious, what was bad about the training in the 73? All the best, glad youre enjoying the line!

Interesting to hear that about the training from a fresh perspective. All of the U hitres I've talked to have said the same about the 737 training. They all say it it isn't good at all.

Welcome aboard..

OK, everything is great except what really matters? Small detail I guess.

There are areas where 737 initial could be better, for example more consistent scheduling times, an actual question bank for the "oral", getting the scabs out of the non motion sim instruction(they were not bad or great instructors but easy to get caught in crossfire between a scab ground Instructor and Union member flight instructor. Just my opinion.), inclusion of ACARS timely printouts to the scenarios, basic CCS functionality to do your job, and more focus on what you are really going to do on the line (210/170 till the marker/flaps 10, etc) over RNAV/GPS approaches, radial intercepts, and left seat captain actions.

On the other hand having been through 4 military initial training tracks and 2 civilian type rating courses, this was by far the best flight instruction i have experienced. Not even close.

As somebody told me, "It is initial training. You will always remember it and have opinions like everybody else."

And for those who opine that what am i gonna do to fix it? Ummm, i like flying the line a whole lot. Not going back to a desk. I have given my critique in writing and in person to the training center.

Gotta go fly...yeah it is pretty good.

The thing is, Bob, that many of us have been slogging through this garbage of a merger for over 3 years and nothing has gotten better. Virtually everything about my work life is worse than it was 3 years ago. I get that it is better than the regional, but is absolutely horrible compared to what it was pre-merger.

That said, I think our future (meaning having a job) is probably better than it was before the merger.

There is simply no reason that this corporation cannot compete with the DAL's of the world... with the right management. We don't have that. We have a classless, clueless bunch of monkeys at the top forcing reasonless changes that make even less sense than the failed res system switch.

I'm glad you're having fun with the job, and hopefully the movement and new pilots in the system will re-invigorate the rest of us, but for now, I'm really not liking the changes. Delta proved it could work... yet it seems like Jeff is intent on proving that it can't be done. We do have nice new uniforms though... Oh, whoops.

Scott

The guppy training experience is NOT United. It's Continental.

It will get better once you go through Denver TK training.

Welcome.

But the guppy training scheduling, which is a huge part of the dysfunction, is all in Willis now with LUal peeps running that show.

great
 

Well as a profession with the regionals abusing their crews for little pay it is bound to leak into mainline as " heh it's better than a regional" mentality reins with the new hires. Wait till they reach critical mass and FAR work rules and cola pay raises will permeate the contract. It seems that jet blue is already locked into the it's better than regional mentality.

Then why is TK different. <hint, it really is> There are very few "LUAL" peeps running anything right now. We hoped it would be better. It's not.

Scott

Not true. It's LCAL people running that still. DENTK is run by LUAL and its a much better experience.

Agree. Look what happened to the airline the first month we started using the LCAL CCS nightmare.

While it is fun to play the blame game. The truth of the matter is that it wouldn't take much to standardize the training syllabus throughout the company. A couple of swift strokes with a scab axe and you simply put the time tested and highly efficient DENTK syllabus in place, it would take about two months and the problem would be solved.

For this to happen it would require the IAH training center to admit that they have a problem, it would require management to actually listen and be willing to make a change for the betterment of the company as a whole. It would require the shunting and bruising of some egos and of course it ain't going to happen. What was I thinking.

Anyone who has been through training in both DEN and IAH care to comment on the differences?

Yes.

TK is a white table cloth dining experience compared to the cow pasture chuck wagon chow that is IAH training.....

Nope, the Training Scheduling used to be in the sim building in IAH and was moved North over a year ago. Very few, if any, schedulers went with it. Huge tug of war between Flt Standards and Training depts from sUA and sCAL causing most of the timeline training issues in the day to day training operation. There ARE issues with the 737 AQP program (I've been thru it 3 times) that need to be seriously addressed.

Appears that the 757 and 777 programs are doing okay in both training process and scheduling issues, although there has been some snafus with 777 landings scheduled correctly into DEN TK.

Point is, it's not all black and white blame game like you continuously portray.

The schedulers don't make the schedule. The managers do. Who is managing it? FWIW, the kind of garbage described here and on the other forums never happened at TK.

Scott

When a certain 'class' of pilots are dominate, they don't complain and accept a lower standard...

Wrong again. This doesn't explain the difference between DENTK and IAH plus all the Uhires that 100% have seen both sides and know the difference. We can't run United like we used to run the big regional known as Continental.

PBS, CCS, Shares, etc are all failures and the LCAL leadership that we inherited wont let them go along with their belief that if we replace 757s and 767s with guppies that will fix everything.

Scott, the training scheduling managers and schedulers are not on site anymore in IAH, reducing the ease with which snafu's occurring in the day to day operation. Sim goes down at night or on a weekend cascades changes to students schedules that used to be able to be handled with a walk across the hall. Now it involves contact with the mother ship that might or might not answer the phone.

Again, UAL didn't build Continental's training program. Of the UAL guys that I know that have gone through the CAL program (Uhires) has nothing good to say about it other than that the PI's were solid (kudos). This isn't Fred's establishment anymore.

Scott

You did not address one thing I said. You, predictably, went on another CAL sucks rant. I know its hard for you MENSA types to slow down the mental activity level to that of mere mortal, but focus. I agree (and stated) there are substantial issues with the 737 AQP program that have existed forever. However, many of the training scheduling snafus are resulting from the fact that there is no more day to day support in the building to handle the inevitable issues that crop up. That was a post merger change that was ill advised, especially for training the largest fleet in the airline.

Now, please continue with your daily rantings about CCS, Shares, Guppies, etc.

Don't forget your '83 saviors! :rolleyes:

Thats been acknowledged. The program needs a reboot, and it should have happened years ago. Problem was everything got put on hold in 2010 when we had dueling POI's. Now we are stuck because you can't just tweak an AQP Program, you have to start a parallel program and get it up to speed while simultaneously supporting the existing one to keep from shutting the whole fleet down during a program switchover. I don't now how they are going to do it, but it does need to be a priority. The program footprint has not fundamentally changed in 15 years, they've just added more stuff like RNP, ETOPS, etc to make the syllabus bloated and completely unbalanced.

However, the company is not doing themselves any favors by the minimal support they are providing in the daily operation. A lot of that goes back to an existing turf war between flt standards and training.

That goes without saying.

A quick look at the 737 trng org chart shows some work still to be done on this front.

(1) Program Mgr
(2) Instructors (PCA)
(9) APD (Evaluators)

I know I'm opening up myself here but, could someone please explain what makes TK so much better (I could care less whose program we follow or where training is located, since it only happens once a yr.) Personally, I hope it ends up in Denver since thats where I'm from and would be nice to have a 2 months to spend there!! Please give specifics on whats better and leave out the cafeteria!! :eek: I have been through 4 different type ratings at LCAL and all have been fine!! I don't know what would make it great since I hate training!! It's like going to the library at College where it was quite and to much studying was going on!! :eek: Every course I've been through they are very prepared and made sure I was ready for my type ride!! I've never had any issues with any training courses. I work hard but, am not the best student! They always have me fully prepared! The only thing I've heard from some of the Uhires I've flown with is that it is much more intense (compressed amount time for course and 1 or 2 less sim periods) Other than that, it's usually about the food! I'm not going to bash the UAL training because I've never been through it I'm sure it was good.(But, it was still just training!) I hope the people responding to me will be people that have been through BOTH and can give specifics on what is different! Please no "mine is bigger than yours" stories!!

How do you know its fine, if you know nothing else....

So that's your answer? :confused: I know because they did a GREAT job like I stated in my post!! Was that confusing for you? How do you know if your college education didn't measure up if you didn't go to Harvard? I probably just ticked off all the Stanford people!! Snarge, how did I know you would be the first one to respond without an answer!!:rolleyes: Is that what they taught you in ground school?

Just trying to spark your critical thinking skills..... sorry to offend you.

? Login

You should be able to see this.

Scott

Went thru TK in 2/08 and IAH in 10/12 both on the 737. The two programs are very different in their approach yet get you to the same place in the end (hopefully), a passed check ride. Without getting emotional on the two here are my observations:

1. Facilities - DEN is like a small college campus while IAH is like a Flight Safety building. I preferred the atmosphere in DEN. It was easy to find a study room or FTD to run on your own time. Not too mention the cafeteria along with History on display in TK. I have to say also that Doris in DEN is by far the nicest lady you will ever encounter in this business. She goes out of her way to make you feel like your part of a very special family.

2. Equipment - IAH has the edge with regards to newer SIMs, basic audio/visual equipment, and PCs. DEN was still using VHS tapes and most PCs were yellowing from age. You could tell capital was short thru/ after their bankruptcy. DEN did give you the ability to run the empty FTDs on your own which was a plus.

3. Ground School (Systems) - completely different approach. Cal with the CBT, teach yourself answers to the test method. UAL with traditional classroom/instructor, build the airplane from scratch method. I definitely felt more knowledgeable coming out of the traditional method.

4. FTD/SIMs - once again different approach. CAL had multiple FTDs/SIMs with a different instructor almost every session. This did provide the opportunity for getting different perspectives and methods however did prove challenging with regards to "standardization". At UAL I remember having the same instructor throughout which made standardization a non factor and seemed to help a little bit with tailoring lessons to weak areas from previous lessons.

5. Schedules - CAL schedules were much more fluid due to the amount of training and available SIMs/Instructors. UAL schedules were pretty solid and seemed to be more commuter friendly.

6. Instructors - I must say I thought the guys in both buildings were both knowledgable, friendly, and were there too help if asked. There were some absolutely GREAT instructors in both buildings. I will add though that there were a couple of higher ups in IAH that I personally did not care for, but I'm sure they didn't care for some of us.

All in all both programs are there to get you through and to the line. They just do it in different ways coming from different past practices. I'm a United guy at heart so I'm biased but there are great people in both buildings that are there to get you thru and help make you a better pilot.

UAL = standardization and no surprises when getting different instructors. Same on the line.

CAL = the standard changed with each instructor and more often than not contradicted the last instructor I had.

A CAL buddy warned me before starting training that I should be prepared to be frustrated by the training. He was correct.

Great post!

I didn't know that L-UAL was still running systems ground schools. In my opinion, that is a huge plus over the CBT system at CAL.

When a certain "class" of pilots are dominate I have a feeling they will still complain because that's what they do.

True dat, however I meant the kind that obtain their job immorally.... you know, like taking food off your families table...

Thanks for the Good post! It was interesting to read!

No you weren't!! You know what you were trying to do! ;)

We have a winner. Take away the atmosphere and everything else. That one paragraph shows the difference between a Major Airline training program and LCAL. It was more standardized at my regional.

"a passed check ride"

Bingo the reason for the season!

Best advice given?

"Cooperate and graduate!"

Outstanding post, thanks for the objectivity. Looking forward to the training, wherever it is.