100 Seat A/C - Don't Grab For The Carrot!
10-12-2015, 04:28 PM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2009
Position: The GF of FUPM
Posts: 3,073
The current contract is full of concessionary BS and draconian cuts compared to what we were used to. Prior to its ratification, there were hundreds of posts here, and on the "better" forum detailing them and explaining just how much we were giving up in an attempt to stop the whipsaw. Hard to believe you don't remember that.
I suggest you do your own research by using the search function. You can start with C2000 and go from there.
I suggest you do your own research by using the search function. You can start with C2000 and go from there.
Last edited by oldmako; 10-12-2015 at 04:47 PM.
10-12-2015, 04:40 PM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Posts: 520
This is my take:
Airline managements see profits for the forseeable future, not uncertainty.
They dont want to share the profits, or as much if they dont have to-
They like known costs.
They are trying every past trick in the book to "get stable" amd keep costs linear
Sign today and get new jets, sign today and at the sacrifice of profit sharing, get the highest rates ever ( but u morons will really be funding ur own raise)
Sign today or else risk going in long negotiations.
Sign today and allow us to get an extension- blah blah blah and we will just make section 6 draaaaaaag out in the future.
Mgmnt doesnt want us to have a decent contract if negotiations stall amd we can hold certain items they desperately need to function and expand internationally.
The correct answer is, ill listen but my answer is going to be no u til u make me say yes... That simple
Record profits? Show me record appreciation
Airline managements see profits for the forseeable future, not uncertainty.
They dont want to share the profits, or as much if they dont have to-
They like known costs.
They are trying every past trick in the book to "get stable" amd keep costs linear
Sign today and get new jets, sign today and at the sacrifice of profit sharing, get the highest rates ever ( but u morons will really be funding ur own raise)
Sign today or else risk going in long negotiations.
Sign today and allow us to get an extension- blah blah blah and we will just make section 6 draaaaaaag out in the future.
Mgmnt doesnt want us to have a decent contract if negotiations stall amd we can hold certain items they desperately need to function and expand internationally.
The correct answer is, ill listen but my answer is going to be no u til u make me say yes... That simple
Record profits? Show me record appreciation
10-12-2015, 09:04 PM
#14
Banned
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Position: 756 Left Side
Posts: 1,629
*Posted on the other thread.. but relevant here too*
Current Fleet plan (as of 23 July)
CRJ700 (70 Seats) - 115
EMB170 (70 Seats) - 38
EMB175 (76 Seats) - 33
Total 70/76 seat ac = 186
Planned end of 2015
CRJ700 (70 Seats) - 109 [reduction of 6]
EMB170 (70 Seats) - 38
EMB175 (76 Seats) - 82 [increase of 49]
Total 70/76 seat ac = 229
Per 1-C-1-a(2)-(c)
up to 255 70/76 seat ac, of which up to 130 may be 76 seat. After 1 Jan 2016, up to 153 76 seat ac.
Per 1-c-1-g
IF the company adds a NSNB, company can go from 153 to 223 76 seat ac..
HOWEVER
Once the number of 70/76 seat ac exceeds 255, then the limit on 70 seat ac can not exceed 102.
The way I read it- if the company wants to add 26 larger RJ's next year (to the limit of 255), no problem.
If they want to add a 27th, Problem.
Has nothing to do with a NSNB. They can order it, we can fly it.
BUT.. if they are at 108 large RJ's (76 seater), they can't add another one TILL they start to reduce the number of 70 seaters down towards 102 aircraft. Basically a one for one add/remove.
[A total reduction of 45 aircraft!]
Question becomes- what (if anything) do they want? I have my opinion and most of you can probably see what they want. Next question- Are we willing to negotiate something for that?
Always
Motch
Current Fleet plan (as of 23 July)
CRJ700 (70 Seats) - 115
EMB170 (70 Seats) - 38
EMB175 (76 Seats) - 33
Total 70/76 seat ac = 186
Planned end of 2015
CRJ700 (70 Seats) - 109 [reduction of 6]
EMB170 (70 Seats) - 38
EMB175 (76 Seats) - 82 [increase of 49]
Total 70/76 seat ac = 229
Per 1-C-1-a(2)-(c)
up to 255 70/76 seat ac, of which up to 130 may be 76 seat. After 1 Jan 2016, up to 153 76 seat ac.
Per 1-c-1-g
IF the company adds a NSNB, company can go from 153 to 223 76 seat ac..
HOWEVER
Once the number of 70/76 seat ac exceeds 255, then the limit on 70 seat ac can not exceed 102.
The way I read it- if the company wants to add 26 larger RJ's next year (to the limit of 255), no problem.
If they want to add a 27th, Problem.
Has nothing to do with a NSNB. They can order it, we can fly it.
BUT.. if they are at 108 large RJ's (76 seater), they can't add another one TILL they start to reduce the number of 70 seaters down towards 102 aircraft. Basically a one for one add/remove.
[A total reduction of 45 aircraft!]
Question becomes- what (if anything) do they want? I have my opinion and most of you can probably see what they want. Next question- Are we willing to negotiate something for that?
Always
Motch
10-12-2015, 09:29 PM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2011
Position: A Nobody
Posts: 1,559
Old mako
"Look it up yourself" is a non-answer. After nearly 38 years at UAL I have yet to see one contract where people didn't called it substandard in one way or the other. The worst UAL contract UAL pilots have ever had was the BK and sadly this one is a big improvement over that one.
But my real point is many scream, "substandard," and "draconian" but yet can't really point to one thing in these categories. Personally the real issue isn't our contract it's the inherited lack of respect for it by management. Oh and don't forget most pilots don't even know how to look up their rights in the contract, let alone say "no" when it's needed.
So my question stands for the pilot who posted such words, "make a list for us of the "substandard" things which need to be fixed.
"Look it up yourself" is a non-answer. After nearly 38 years at UAL I have yet to see one contract where people didn't called it substandard in one way or the other. The worst UAL contract UAL pilots have ever had was the BK and sadly this one is a big improvement over that one.
But my real point is many scream, "substandard," and "draconian" but yet can't really point to one thing in these categories. Personally the real issue isn't our contract it's the inherited lack of respect for it by management. Oh and don't forget most pilots don't even know how to look up their rights in the contract, let alone say "no" when it's needed.
So my question stands for the pilot who posted such words, "make a list for us of the "substandard" things which need to be fixed.
10-12-2015, 09:36 PM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Position: ERJ, CA
Posts: 718
Originally Posted by MasterOfPuppets
There is not a pilot on property who is reaching for that carrot. We open SEC 6 in MAY. Our contract needs a lot more help then the 5 items being discussed.
If the company doesn't come to the table with a TA that literally blows every airline out of the water then we will be heading to SEC 6.
I expect the MEC to reject the proposal. Then I expect United management to go on an anti pilot/greedy pilot add campaign. They will tell pax and employees that the pilots are keeping us from flying to TLV and AKL and that we are going to have to differ acft orders if the pilots won't allow us to fly them. They will tell the FAs that there will be significant job loss due to no 100 seaters and the possible differing of acft.
Bottom line is I do not believe we will get to vote on anything by NOV 20th and we will spend the next however long being hated by all the employee groups because the pilots are destroying the airline.
If the company doesn't come to the table with a TA that literally blows every airline out of the water then we will be heading to SEC 6.
I expect the MEC to reject the proposal. Then I expect United management to go on an anti pilot/greedy pilot add campaign. They will tell pax and employees that the pilots are keeping us from flying to TLV and AKL and that we are going to have to differ acft orders if the pilots won't allow us to fly them. They will tell the FAs that there will be significant job loss due to no 100 seaters and the possible differing of acft.
Bottom line is I do not believe we will get to vote on anything by NOV 20th and we will spend the next however long being hated by all the employee groups because the pilots are destroying the airline.
10-13-2015, 01:52 PM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: WB Bunkie
Posts: 1,246
It seems that the same pilots who beat their chest for C2000 or better are the same ones that (privately) vote for concessions when the company can't manage a downturn in the economy. Contract 2000 doesn't seem like a viable long term solution. I'd rather lock in a good contract that we can keep through the next downturn.
No more suicides, divorce stories, etc. Lock in work rules that we vow to never give up. If the banks were too big to fail, I'd hedge a bet that no matter who is in office come January 2017 (and the next downturn), the second biggest airline in the world (85,000 employees and growing) is seen as too big to fail (liquidate).
So, subject to change with better information, but I see no problem in fixing major issues and increasing pay. This boom and bust cycle is not fun and we as an employee group are complicit is we push for contracts that aren't sustainable in a downturn. I understand that many of the most ardent union dudes say thats just how things work, but I've got to believe there is an alternative...
No more suicides, divorce stories, etc. Lock in work rules that we vow to never give up. If the banks were too big to fail, I'd hedge a bet that no matter who is in office come January 2017 (and the next downturn), the second biggest airline in the world (85,000 employees and growing) is seen as too big to fail (liquidate).
So, subject to change with better information, but I see no problem in fixing major issues and increasing pay. This boom and bust cycle is not fun and we as an employee group are complicit is we push for contracts that aren't sustainable in a downturn. I understand that many of the most ardent union dudes say thats just how things work, but I've got to believe there is an alternative...
10-13-2015, 05:39 PM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Left Seat
Posts: 149
Originally Posted by duvie
It seems that the same pilots who beat their chest for C2000 or better are the same ones that (privately) vote for concessions when the company can't manage a downturn in the economy. Contract 2000 doesn't seem like a viable long term solution. I'd rather lock in a good contract that we can keep through the next downturn.
No more suicides, divorce stories, etc. Lock in work rules that we vow to never give up. If the banks were too big to fail, I'd hedge a bet that no matter who is in office come January 2017 (and the next downturn), the second biggest airline in the world (85,000 employees and growing) is seen as too big to fail (liquidate).
So, subject to change with better information, but I see no problem in fixing major issues and increasing pay. This boom and bust cycle is not fun and we as an employee group are complicit is we push for contracts that aren't sustainable in a downturn. I understand that many of the most ardent union dudes say thats just how things work, but I've got to believe there is an alternative...
No more suicides, divorce stories, etc. Lock in work rules that we vow to never give up. If the banks were too big to fail, I'd hedge a bet that no matter who is in office come January 2017 (and the next downturn), the second biggest airline in the world (85,000 employees and growing) is seen as too big to fail (liquidate).
So, subject to change with better information, but I see no problem in fixing major issues and increasing pay. This boom and bust cycle is not fun and we as an employee group are complicit is we push for contracts that aren't sustainable in a downturn. I understand that many of the most ardent union dudes say thats just how things work, but I've got to believe there is an alternative...
10-13-2015, 05:56 PM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: 787
Posts: 3,137
Originally Posted by duvie
It seems that the same pilots who beat their chest for C2000 or better are the same ones that (privately) vote for concessions when the company can't manage a downturn in the economy. Contract 2000 doesn't seem like a viable long term solution. I'd rather lock in a good contract that we can keep through the next downturn.
No more suicides, divorce stories, etc. Lock in work rules that we vow to never give up. If the banks were too big to fail, I'd hedge a bet that no matter who is in office come January 2017 (and the next downturn), the second biggest airline in the world (85,000 employees and growing) is seen as too big to fail (liquidate).
So, subject to change with better information, but I see no problem in fixing major issues and increasing pay. This boom and bust cycle is not fun and we as an employee group are complicit is we push for contracts that aren't sustainable in a downturn. I understand that many of the most ardent union dudes say thats just how things work, but I've got to believe there is an alternative...
No more suicides, divorce stories, etc. Lock in work rules that we vow to never give up. If the banks were too big to fail, I'd hedge a bet that no matter who is in office come January 2017 (and the next downturn), the second biggest airline in the world (85,000 employees and growing) is seen as too big to fail (liquidate).
So, subject to change with better information, but I see no problem in fixing major issues and increasing pay. This boom and bust cycle is not fun and we as an employee group are complicit is we push for contracts that aren't sustainable in a downturn. I understand that many of the most ardent union dudes say thats just how things work, but I've got to believe there is an alternative...
WELCOME TO A REAL UNION. Never roll over.
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