West 57th History
02-01-2016 | 03:33 PM
#41
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From: Tom’s Whipping boy.
Who said justification- or even implied it?
Right there with you. CAL sent me a letter in 83 inviting me to an interview. Mentioned it to dad and he said " Well I never told you what to do with your career, but if you were to cross that picket line, don't ever darken my doorstep again". He was serious.
02-01-2016 | 04:01 PM
#42
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From: Cub Cap
For those of you too young to remember;
The Flight Engineers International (FEIA) struck Eastern Airlines and several others in 1962- over the loss of their jobs.
The airlines refused to sign a contract with them. The short story is this;
With the coming of jets and their relative simplicity, having a flight engineer with a thorough understanding of engines and systems was becoming less important. Many of the FE's had a lot of longevity and were paid more than First Officers in many cases. Most were former A&P mechanics, a very few were engineering graduates.
Airline management saw that seat as a good entry level position for new pilots with lower labor costs ( wages).
ALPA saw that seat as an additional 20 to 30% increase in dues paying members.
The two got together and decided to put the FE's out of the cockpit.
The FE's were union men and members of the AFL-CIO.
ALPA national came up with some rather lame reasons why a pilot should be sitting there ( but it was just eye wash) to justify crossing the picket line and taking their jobs.
As I recall, only American, Braniff and Pan AM and TWA settled with the FE's.
American pilots were incensed that ALPA would send it's members to cross another flight deck union's picket line to take their seat. That added to the fire which eventually took American pilots out of ALPA.
So, when I see people digging up stories of ALPA "How great thou art" because of a strike- I have to giggle and frown at the hypocrisy and silliness of it all. ( divisive too) As well, I remember seeing guys cross a picket line just months after pounding their chest about what a great unionist they are. Some, especially it seems younger ones are so quick to judge before they walk in their moccasins.
My dad, like many of his friends, were good union members and truly believed the ALPA line- until that day in 1962. Then they were given no choice by their union "ALPA" and the company; cross that line and scab or loose your job. Luckily for my dad, he had enough seniority to avoid sitting in the FE seat and bid to a junior base to stay in the right seat ( an Electra I think). Some of those Flight Engineers were family friends with whom we (had) eaten, played and regularly socialized with. Some were neighbors.
The airline did offer jobs to any FE who would go out and get a pilot's license. Very few did or even could. Quite a few of those who did, later scabbed at their respective airline when ALPA struck years later at EAL, CAL, etc.. payback I guess.
So I think anyone who gets some joy out of digging up a very bad time ( the most recent anyway) for our airlines- dial it back and save it for a day when your actions ( not your words) will determine where you stand. Your bluster is just so sophomoric.
That goes for all the "me too, me too- I hate scabs" , yadda yadda yadda.
And by the way; there is nothing wrong with forgiveness- unless of course you think you are perfect. In that case, you do not belong at the controls of an airplane.
The Flight Engineers International (FEIA) struck Eastern Airlines and several others in 1962- over the loss of their jobs.
The airlines refused to sign a contract with them. The short story is this;
With the coming of jets and their relative simplicity, having a flight engineer with a thorough understanding of engines and systems was becoming less important. Many of the FE's had a lot of longevity and were paid more than First Officers in many cases. Most were former A&P mechanics, a very few were engineering graduates.
Airline management saw that seat as a good entry level position for new pilots with lower labor costs ( wages).
ALPA saw that seat as an additional 20 to 30% increase in dues paying members.
The two got together and decided to put the FE's out of the cockpit.
The FE's were union men and members of the AFL-CIO.
ALPA national came up with some rather lame reasons why a pilot should be sitting there ( but it was just eye wash) to justify crossing the picket line and taking their jobs.
As I recall, only American, Braniff and Pan AM and TWA settled with the FE's.
American pilots were incensed that ALPA would send it's members to cross another flight deck union's picket line to take their seat. That added to the fire which eventually took American pilots out of ALPA.
So, when I see people digging up stories of ALPA "How great thou art" because of a strike- I have to giggle and frown at the hypocrisy and silliness of it all. ( divisive too) As well, I remember seeing guys cross a picket line just months after pounding their chest about what a great unionist they are. Some, especially it seems younger ones are so quick to judge before they walk in their moccasins.
My dad, like many of his friends, were good union members and truly believed the ALPA line- until that day in 1962. Then they were given no choice by their union "ALPA" and the company; cross that line and scab or loose your job. Luckily for my dad, he had enough seniority to avoid sitting in the FE seat and bid to a junior base to stay in the right seat ( an Electra I think). Some of those Flight Engineers were family friends with whom we (had) eaten, played and regularly socialized with. Some were neighbors.
The airline did offer jobs to any FE who would go out and get a pilot's license. Very few did or even could. Quite a few of those who did, later scabbed at their respective airline when ALPA struck years later at EAL, CAL, etc.. payback I guess.
So I think anyone who gets some joy out of digging up a very bad time ( the most recent anyway) for our airlines- dial it back and save it for a day when your actions ( not your words) will determine where you stand. Your bluster is just so sophomoric.
That goes for all the "me too, me too- I hate scabs" , yadda yadda yadda.
And by the way; there is nothing wrong with forgiveness- unless of course you think you are perfect. In that case, you do not belong at the controls of an airplane.
United worked it out with its F/E's, although with some difficulty in 1955. All new hires were required to be pilot-engineers. The company paid for the mechanic engineers to get a private license, it was not that difficult.
American management ignored the issue. Finally they offered their pilots a substantial pay bribe if they would allow non-pilot engineers. This was against ALPA policy and the precedent set by UAL. At the time, American had a second officer and an engineer on the jets. After a political fight for the presidency of ALPA, lost by the American leadership, they pulled out of ALPA. It really had little to do with the F/E issue. That was soon solved, they eventually followed UAL. My first student was an AMR engineer getting his private, (I was 19 he was 50) hard to say who taught who the most.
By 1964, the Eastern engineers were still picketing the passenger terminal at Idewild (Kennedy), with picket signs telling passengers; "FLY and FRY on Eastern" They could have settled as did all the other engineer groups and had a great career, but like PATCO they did not know when to hold them and when to fold them.
ALPA has, and will cross picket lines, as do every other union. The IAM crossed our picket line in 1985 with our encouragement. It put pressure on the company because they had to pay them. The AFA honored our picket line, but we did not ask them to do so. It was a smart move on their part and once we became committed not to go back without them the hook was set. Nevertheless, they had smart leaders who recognized continuing a strike on their behalf was not a great idea. On the other hand, TWA pilots crossed a F/A strike in 1986, with great angst by the UAL pilots.
Strikes are extremely ugly affairs, jobs are lost, friends are lost and lives are destroyed. It may be a reason we are still talking about 1985 and there has not been another one at UAL since.
There is much debate as to who qualifies as a scab, but one trade union axiom is that a person absolutely is a SCAB if they cross "your" picket line, to take "your" job. You can forgive them if you like, even let them back in the union, but it will never change the fact of who they are.
02-02-2016 | 05:03 AM
#43
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From: Tom’s Whipping boy.
Historically, much of this is simply not accurate. The Eastern F/E leadership was a recalcitrant group in their belief that the engineer controlled the engines, not the Captain. The issue was a festering sore, which originated in 1948 after a number of DC6 accidents. The result was the Feds required a flight engineer in the cockpit. The mechanics were a logical choice, but proved to be a very bad cultural decision. In those days, Captains had barely accepted co-pilots, certainly not independent minded mechanics. It was not ALPA leaders that drove this issue it was the line Captains.
United worked it out with its F/E's, although with some difficulty in 1955. All new hires were required to be pilot-engineers. The company paid for the mechanic engineers to get a private license, it was not that difficult.
American management ignored the issue. Finally they offered their pilots a substantial pay bribe if they would allow non-pilot engineers. This was against ALPA policy and the precedent set by UAL. At the time, American had a second officer and an engineer on the jets. After a political fight for the presidency of ALPA, lost by the American leadership, they pulled out of ALPA. It really had little to do with the F/E issue. That was soon solved, they eventually followed UAL. My first student was an AMR engineer getting his private, (I was 19 he was 50) hard to say who taught who the most.
By 1964, the Eastern engineers were still picketing the passenger terminal at Idewild (Kennedy), with picket signs telling passengers; "FLY and FRY on Eastern" They could have settled as did all the other engineer groups and had a great career, but like PATCO they did not know when to hold them and when to fold them.
ALPA has, and will cross picket lines, as do every other union. The IAM crossed our picket line in 1985 with our encouragement. It put pressure on the company because they had to pay them. The AFA honored our picket line, but we did not ask them to do so. It was a smart move on their part and once we became committed not to go back without them the hook was set. Nevertheless, they had smart leaders who recognized continuing a strike on their behalf was not a great idea. On the other hand, TWA pilots crossed a F/A strike in 1986, with great angst by the UAL pilots.
Strikes are extremely ugly affairs, jobs are lost, friends are lost and lives are destroyed. It may be a reason we are still talking about 1985 and there has not been another one at UAL since.
There is much debate as to who qualifies as a scab, but one trade union axiom is that a person absolutely is a SCAB if they cross "your" picket line, to take "your" job. You can forgive them if you like, even let them back in the union, but it will never change the fact of who they are.
United worked it out with its F/E's, although with some difficulty in 1955. All new hires were required to be pilot-engineers. The company paid for the mechanic engineers to get a private license, it was not that difficult.
American management ignored the issue. Finally they offered their pilots a substantial pay bribe if they would allow non-pilot engineers. This was against ALPA policy and the precedent set by UAL. At the time, American had a second officer and an engineer on the jets. After a political fight for the presidency of ALPA, lost by the American leadership, they pulled out of ALPA. It really had little to do with the F/E issue. That was soon solved, they eventually followed UAL. My first student was an AMR engineer getting his private, (I was 19 he was 50) hard to say who taught who the most.
By 1964, the Eastern engineers were still picketing the passenger terminal at Idewild (Kennedy), with picket signs telling passengers; "FLY and FRY on Eastern" They could have settled as did all the other engineer groups and had a great career, but like PATCO they did not know when to hold them and when to fold them.
ALPA has, and will cross picket lines, as do every other union. The IAM crossed our picket line in 1985 with our encouragement. It put pressure on the company because they had to pay them. The AFA honored our picket line, but we did not ask them to do so. It was a smart move on their part and once we became committed not to go back without them the hook was set. Nevertheless, they had smart leaders who recognized continuing a strike on their behalf was not a great idea. On the other hand, TWA pilots crossed a F/A strike in 1986, with great angst by the UAL pilots.
Strikes are extremely ugly affairs, jobs are lost, friends are lost and lives are destroyed. It may be a reason we are still talking about 1985 and there has not been another one at UAL since.
There is much debate as to who qualifies as a scab, but one trade union axiom is that a person absolutely is a SCAB if they cross "your" picket line, to take "your" job. You can forgive them if you like, even let them back in the union, but it will never change the fact of who they are.
Historically; this sounds like something you read in a book or on google. While it is true there was a history of bad blood between ALPA and FEIA- it does not justify crossing a picket line and taking someone else's job- which is different than crossing a picket line to do YOUR OWN JOB= which is also what happened at UAL in 85 and CAL in '83 and the subject of the video in this thread, as if to say "it is okay if we do it, but everyone else who does is a scab. ALPA crossed the FEIA picket line and took FEIA jobs- period.
And btw, as for historically correctness; Idelwild airport was already JFK in 1964, it changed in 1963 after JFK was assassinated.- I was there and saw those signs when we dropped dad off at work. Maybe you should find some more reliable internet site to quote.
02-02-2016 | 05:52 AM
#44
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Joined: Nov 2009
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Historically; this sounds like something you read in a book or on google. While it is true there was a history of bad blood between ALPA and FEIA- it does not justify crossing a picket line and taking someone else's job- which is different than crossing a picket line to do YOUR OWN JOB= which is also what happened at UAL in 85 and CAL in '83 and the subject of the video in this thread, as if to say "it is okay if we do it, but everyone else who does is a scab. ALPA crossed the FEIA picket line and took FEIA jobs- period.
And btw, as for historically correctness; Idelwild airport was already JFK in 1964, it changed in 1963 after JFK was assassinated.- I was there and saw those signs when we dropped dad off at work. Maybe you should find some more reliable internet site to quote.
02-02-2016 | 09:49 AM
#45
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Joined: Dec 2008
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From: Cub Cap
Historically; this sounds like something you read in a book or on google. While it is true there was a history of bad blood between ALPA and FEIA- it does not justify crossing a picket line and taking someone else's job- which is different than crossing a picket line to do YOUR OWN JOB= which is also what happened at UAL in 85 and CAL in '83 and the subject of the video in this thread, as if to say "it is okay if we do it, but everyone else who does is a scab. ALPA crossed the FEIA picket line and took FEIA jobs- period.
And btw, as for historically correctness; Idelwild airport was already JFK in 1964, it changed in 1963 after JFK was assassinated.- I was there and saw those signs when we dropped dad off at work. Maybe you should find some more reliable internet site to quote.
ALPA can choose to honor a legal picket line and be protected under the RLA, as was the case with AFA in 85. Once the court found the F/E position was the same class and craft, that option was no longer available. ALPA would have been illegally honoring their picket line, even if they wanted to do so, and they didn't. So, you are correct ALPA members did cross the FEIA's picket line. Nevertheless, your dad could have been fired by EAL if he had not shown up for work, he was fortunate to find his moral alternative.
There was no support from ALPA members to have two unions in the cockpit, it was an untenable situation. Especially, when the other FEIA groups had found reasonable ways to settle this dispute. To say a pilot hire by EAL in 62-64 was a scab is absurd. I know one who worked for EAL in 64 who later worked for CAL and was a full term 83 striker. It would not be wise to call him a scab. (Incidentally, the sign still said Idelwild when I picked him up there in early 64)
You are simply confused, it does not matter if it is your job or not, if you cross a legally sanctioned picket line, by a union, to do struck work, you are a scab. This excuse was a brown suit scab favorite in 85, no one was moved by it. Many of these same people blamed the union for inconsistency as a reason to cross, equally unpersuasive. It is the unions prerogative to honor other picket lines and also decide who qualifies as a scab. It is a collective decision, individuals do not get to decide.
The FEIA did not end with the EAL strike, it lived on at other carriers. No doubt, you are unaware the FEIA president was a UAL F/E during this period. I flew with him in the 70's, his perspective was similar to your dads, but he had come to terms with it. He, (DJL) retired as a ORD 747 S/O and has since flown west.
02-03-2016 | 04:47 AM
#46
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From: Tom’s Whipping boy.
So, you are correct ALPA members did cross the FEIA's picket line.
You are simply confused, it does not matter if it is your job or not, if you cross a legally sanctioned picket line, by a union, to do struck work, you are a scab. It is the unions prerogative to honor other picket lines and also decide who qualifies as a scab.
You are simply confused, it does not matter if it is your job or not, if you cross a legally sanctioned picket line, by a union, to do struck work, you are a scab. It is the unions prerogative to honor other picket lines and also decide who qualifies as a scab.
If I get what you are saying, a worker can cross a picket line and take someone else,s job, and it is okay - if their own ( different) union says it is okay. Survival of the fittest I guess huh? Would you say the same thing had the FEIA been able to cross and take ALPA jobs, or maybe if APA or Teamster pilots come take ALPA jobs? Never mind, I think I know your answer.
02-03-2016 | 09:12 AM
#47
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From: Cub Cap
Finally- you get it- maybe; Alpa members crossed a picket line and did struck work! Then you say it is their prerogative to say they are not scabs. How convenient.
If I get what you are saying, a worker can cross a picket line and take someone else,s job, and it is okay - if their own ( different) union says it is okay. Survival of the fittest I guess huh? Would you say the same thing had the FEIA been able to cross and take ALPA jobs, or maybe if APA or Teamster pilots come take ALPA jobs? Never mind, I think I know your answer.
If I get what you are saying, a worker can cross a picket line and take someone else,s job, and it is okay - if their own ( different) union says it is okay. Survival of the fittest I guess huh? Would you say the same thing had the FEIA been able to cross and take ALPA jobs, or maybe if APA or Teamster pilots come take ALPA jobs? Never mind, I think I know your answer.
If the individual doesn't agree or was disadvantaged by his union, is that justification to scab? If a Braniff pilot thinks ALPA was the reason he lost his job, should he have scabbed CAL in 83? Or, the America West (former Wein scab) to scab Ansett in 89. We all know the answer, and that is why we have a list.
It is a stretch to conflate a dispute between unions to the act of an individual deciding it is OK to cross a legal picket line to do struck work, no matter the excuse, but you are entitled to your opinion.
02-04-2016 | 08:30 AM
#48
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From: Tom’s Whipping boy.
Well, if you are a typical pilot personality and you are looking for black and white, you will not find it in the trade union movement. No union, including ALPA, has ever achieved absolute purity in their actions, but what is the alternative, no union? If you want the benefits of collective bargaining, it comes with an obligation to support the group when it may be inconvenient.
It is a stretch to conflate a dispute between unions to the act of an individual deciding it is OK to cross a legal picket line to do struck work, no matter the excuse, but you are entitled to your opinion.
It is a stretch to conflate a dispute between unions to the act of an individual deciding it is OK to cross a legal picket line to do struck work, no matter the excuse, but you are entitled to your opinion.
I think you have missed the point of my originally posting this history- It was not directed at you, but at the early commentors of the original post: to advise them to get off their high horse before they fall.
Black and white?- you mean statements like
So long as they are not ALPA scabs
AND:
How assinine, btw
No where did I event hint at comparing the ALPA pilots scabbing the FEIA as justification or a reason to scab somewhere else- but I get it . Apparently you like so many people on this board who claim to see bogey men everywhere or pretend to so as to compensate, I suppose.
It is really stupid to post a video like the one posted (questioning our airline's safety) with some of the sophomoric comments to follow on a public forum telling the public we still have a problem.
02-04-2016 | 09:50 AM
#49
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I think you have missed the point of my originally posting this history- It was not directed at you, but at the early commentors of the original post: to advise them to get off their high horse before they fall.
Black and white?- you mean statements like
So long as they are not ALPA scabs
AND:
How assinine, btw
No where did I event hint at comparing the ALPA pilots scabbing the FEIA as justification or a reason to scab somewhere else- but I get it . Apparently you like so many people on this board who claim to see bogey men everywhere or pretend to so as to compensate, I suppose.
It is really stupid to post a video like the one posted (questioning our airline's safety) with some of the sophomoric comments to follow on a public forum telling the public we still have a problem.
Black and white?- you mean statements like
So long as they are not ALPA scabs
AND:
How assinine, btw
No where did I event hint at comparing the ALPA pilots scabbing the FEIA as justification or a reason to scab somewhere else- but I get it . Apparently you like so many people on this board who claim to see bogey men everywhere or pretend to so as to compensate, I suppose.
It is really stupid to post a video like the one posted (questioning our airline's safety) with some of the sophomoric comments to follow on a public forum telling the public we still have a problem.
I gather it hit a little close to home. Literally.
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