Delta WB year 2 is 230 from what I see. We are at 228 as of today. And then their gap widens every year from there. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not exactly in poverty but we aren’t payscale kings anymore—especially compared to their “soft pay” and profit sharing. Certainly not high enough to justify our garbage first year pay.

What you're paid is about more than the hourly rate. It's the product of hourly rate, hours credited (or minimum bid period guarantee) and the number of bid periods in a year. Everything I can find says UPS bid periods are 28 days long with a 75-hour guarantee, which means you have 13 bid periods per year - 975 hours minimum. American and Delta, on the other hand, have month-long bid periods, 12 per year - 900 hours minimum. So it's $222k at UPS vs. $207k at Delta & American in the second year. Boo freakin' hoo, cry me a river, etc.

How many 2nd year Delta FOs are on top widebody rates? (seriously I don't know, but I can't imagine the number is high...perhaps a few NYC765Bs?)

Biggest airframe most 2nd year pilots would realistically see is the 7ER, which is currently a hair under $191/hr second year. Not sure if any 2nd year folks at Delta are on the 330 or 350.

Not sure about United or American having any 2nd year FOs on the 764, 787 or Triple.

That's absolutely not to say our abhorent 2nd year pay shouldn't increase and we don't need to match/exceed those WB rates in our current negotiations cycle since our average airframe now exceeds the 767-400...but a number on a chart doesn't necessarily tell the full story.

At this point the first year pay at UPS is so low that you don’t ever break even. You can’t justify that first year rate.

For a pilot hired in 2025, average pay for the first 5 years on a narrowbody is higher at a legacy. At that point you could like either go widebody or captain which then blows it out of the water. I pulled the UPS rates from APC.

Big 3: 121+193+232+238+244=$205 avg
UPS: 59+228+228+233+238=$197 avg

First thing to remember is that we are a contract behind, our numbers will jump next contract.

Profit sharing matters but isn’t reflected in Big 3’s pay rates.

Someone mentioned no pension - Big 3 have a much more robust DC plan. People have run the comparison numbers between and it wasn’t much different from what I remember. Advantage us having a more diversified plan.

Ive kept tabs at my buds who went to majors around the same time I came here. Many have been doing just as good, others lower due to FSD preferences. I feel they work less for the money than we do but I haven’t done a real data comparison.

I don't think anybody is trying to or ever possibly could justify our awful first year pay. It sucks, full stop, end of discussion. I think the entire professional piloting profession is in violent agreement that $59.77/hr first year rate in Q3'2025 is an embarressment of the highest order. That rate is a professional insult and a pilot recruiting anchor on the UPS brand, and the IPA *and most importantly UPS* need to take steps to remedy it now and into the future.

Probationary payrate side, our current rates are roughly 21% below passenger legacy 2023 CBA widebody rates. We're more than a year into Section 6 negotiations and officially past amendable date....I'm sure payrates to exceed those contracts will come in an eventual future TA. I also hope and advocate that eventual future TA sees our current F-scale first year pay, I dunno, at least match regional 70/76 seat first year FO rates?

I can only say this. A good buddy of mine went to Delter same month and year I started at brown. He was awarded the 330. On a side by side comparisons he made 30k more without any OT. Days off on average are 17-18 per 12 calendar month. Mind you I worked more, with OT and some soft pay on top.
he blocks average 52 hours, usually does JFK out to Europe and back. I blocked average 70.
these 28 day calendars are not my jam. On top of that, now on the domestic side I’ve seen bid packages with 9 days off a period. Most of the stuff I can get is 11/12 days off per period.
we are working way harder, longer, more block, less rest, in the ass crack of morning, for less.
I’m happy here at brown, don’t get me wrong, I found my nitch and it works wonders. However, we are starting to lag way behind. Mind you, the big 3 have amendable dates when we finish our TA, IFFF we even finish if.

Bidpro artifact; contractual minimum days off is 11/pay period which is what the bid package shows.

An average of 70 block hours/pay period here is working HARD, even domestic 2DA flying!

out and backs amigo… but I’m home everyday.

ohh and I had no idea it was a bid pro glitch. I was floored to see 9 days off. Thanks for clearing it up.

The "secret" to pay is in the Soft Money. Rigs, Minimum Duty, (3.5-1 Trip), 150% pay for the entire time one is off their original trip-Delta, UAL, 200% JA's, 200% late arrival, Profit sharing checks every February for $150K, etc. Our 2 hour premium is an absolute joke. The $ is not in hourly by a long shot. It's all about getting the Soft Stipulations right.