Hellafo

you mean bid day reserve and get called and flipped to fly a week of night sort?…..sop here.

Recliner

I think there is a reason reserve goes junior on the Z....

tnkrdrvr

So bid a different fleet, change what you bid for, or choose to live where your commute would be easier to non-existent. We have guys who fly nothing but night sort their whole career here. We have other guys who never fly it, and some who only fly it occasionally. There are many good reasons to bid Z. However, you have to be realistic about what you will fly when junior.

UPSFO4LIFE

Flipping your body over and over again WILL, for most people cause medical problems, all you have to do is do a search for it and you will find the data. I know some people handle night flying better than others, but I am finding the older I get, the harder it is for me to do it and recover from it after a trip. Our bodies were not designed to stay up at night and sleep during the day, so take that info and like others have said, get out in the system and find what’s best for you. I would, in the end, say domestic night sort flying will take years off your life.

FTv3

edit to add: This ^^^^^^^^!!!!!

There is some day flying here: PM turns, regular and some base line trips, even the Euro nite sort is basically flying daytime in the US. All of that goes senior, everything else involves back side of the clock flying. Some tolerate it better than others but make no mistake - it ain’t bankers hours for anyone and no one prefers it to working during the day (not talking about the positive aspects of it). As others have said, you spend a couple of years here finding your niche of what works and doesn’t work. You camp out there until upgrade - either taking first available and dealing with flying the worst of the worst schedules or bypass for years until you can hold something palatable.

Living in domicile gives you more line choices/ options as you can factor in the less commutable lines - you can also play the picking up time and a half game. I’d say 85% of the time my bid choices would not have changed whether or not I lived in domicile and considering I’m not a big fan of our domiciles for actually living in, I’m on the other side of the fence regarding one’s life being ultimately better living in domicile.

Statistics: As Boiler pointed out, there’s no hard stats correlating a significant %age of UPS/FX guys croaking shortly after retirement vs the rest of the population. There is plenty showing that back side of the clock work shortens lifespan to some degree. It’s harmful, just how much is the unknown. Note: You will do more of it at UPS vs pax carriers. Given that many can pick and choose their airline these days, I’d be hard pressed to choose FX/UPS based on this factor. The longer I’m here the more I regret it based on the night flying aspect. JMHO/3500.

I did a thread a few years ago called Night flying ( I think) and detailed the schedules we fly here. Worth checking out.

Ray Kinsella

[QUOTE=Beech Dude;3512914]And since we have second year pilots bidding anything they want the seniority issue hasn’t been a factor. Unless you want to bid ANC and ***** about it like so many do on the BNG.

BoilerUP

I'll say it again - shift work sucks. It is physically demanding working in the WOCL against human physiology, and shift work has proven to reduce longevity IN NON-AVIATION WORKERS. I'd argue professional pilots are healthier than the population at large, and we have more opportunities to exercise than many other types of workers IF we prioritize that as part of our routine. To that point, there has been no study of professional pilot lifespan in the last 3 or so decades and none that centers on cargo pilots.

I'll also reiterate a refrain I've said dozens of times here - "This job ain't for everybody."

What I do think there is, however, is a niche here for just about everybody. It might take a little bit of seniority to find it though, but seniority here has moved at a historic rate in the last 6 years due to significant fleet/pilot group growth. 2014 hires are now above 50% seniority and a mandatory retirement wave looms over the upcoming decade.

All that said...

With the movement going on in the industry right now and <2yr narrowbody upgrades at the Big Three, "golden handcuffs" aren't really at play like they were 5-10-15 years ago and life is too short to be miserable in your career.

"Sleep, exercise, eat decently healthy."

Trip7x

Look at the people flying the sort and that should be your answer. Some look like they’ve aged an additional 10 years. I don’t understand how anyone can sleep, workout and eat healthy under the current domestic work rules. International flying isn’t for everyone. However it gives you the opportunity to sleep, workout and indulge in local culture. You can rationalize your argument to fit your own narrative. Bottom line is trying to find your niche and be Happy. Living in base also is paramount. Who wants to fly all night/day spend 2-6 hrs in sleep room or crash pad and Jumpseat home? Even if your roster allows for one commute. One commute-is one commute to many for me. Something to be said about driving to work.

InstantCoffee

Agree and disagree.

Did sort flying for a while and realized I did not want to end up like the walking dead in there; made a change in my bid strategy when I could.

Been holding AT and PA crossings on Z. Just got senior enough to hold 2-week trips in Europe. Cush, right? 4 leg nights most of both weeks with 12 hour layovers and a full circadian flip for the crossings on both ends of the trip is still tough. Not SDF/PHL/DFW night sort tough. But tough. Maybe there are better lines (fewer legs a night, longer layovers) that go more senior to me, but I doubt it. Find the trips with mostly crossings to allow more opportunities for exercise and to get out. Just fewer cities to do that, and not much to see around a lot of those hotels unless you take some kind of transport, which has been difficult until recently. Could get out in Europe more than Asia for the last couple of years. Now that Japan and Korea are both opening up, Asia (for crossings) might not be so bad. (General bid around China for the last 2.5 years and haven’t been or heard any reports yet about life under the looser restrictions in HKG and TPE, but suspect it’s a “my head feels better when I stop hitting it with a hammer” situation.) Probably going back to crossings just so there’s more time to get out and work out; those are indisputable elements of healthy(er) living regardless of the time of day one works. Maybe the longer trips on the Whale are more along the rhythm you suggest, but they have plenty of crap sandwiches hidden in their schedules too.

Being a “glass half empty” person, instead of saying “find your niche and be happy” I’d say “pick your scheduling poison, call FAT/ SIK when you are FAT/ SIK, and appreciate the features in the contract that allow you to enjoy your time off with the people you love (OCV, conflict bidding and pay) because we’re all going to die anyway, whether we fly on the front or back side of the clock.

All that to say: agree that domestic sort flying is probably the worst, but international isn’t necessarily that much better. Make intentional choices about managing your health. Find what schedule works for you, because if you don’t, you’ll burn out.

Also: Not a doctor or physiologist, so this opinion is worth what was paid for it.

Clearly the java hasn’t kicked in yet, but re-reading my post, think we are in violent agreement. To put the blame where it belongs, I’m clearly the one generating the violence. Sorry.

IC

Recliner

I was simply sharing my observation from watching schedule bid awards on the Z. My assumption is that reserve goes junior because you don't sit around in base unused. But maybe I am wrong?