UPS v. Delta
 

53 year old military guy here with some questions. I start at Delta next month and was successful at the UPS interview and am in the "pool". I was told in the interview that I would be recommended for the Twin Track. My questions center around QOL at UPS specifically as it relates to sleep and circadian rhythm. I'm hoping to learn what a new hire schedule would be like for the first 24 months at UPS? What about >24 months out? As a default I am a morning person, however, have worked different shifts over the course of a 31 year military career. I don't have any family, relocation or financial constraints and would appreciate insight into what folks who have been in the industry and at UPS would do given these options. Thank you.

I'm relatively happy here, but there's a lot to recommend Delta at the moment. I'll let the twin guys speak to the lifestyle stuff, as I haven't done that flying, but consider that the music seems to be coming to at least a pause for a while, and our upgrades were already around five years. Also we will not have a new contract for three (or more).

I'm not junior, but I've trained and flown with plenty who are/were. Because you specifically ask about sleep and circadian rhythm, the question is pretty straight forward. Your CR QOL will be vastly superior at Delta. We've had lots of movement since 2014, so for the past few years it was reasonable to assume that you could avoid our difficult trips after around a year or so. I think it's pretty clear that sort of rapid advancement is over, at least for the near term. If you come here, you should expect to be junior for quite a while. I don't have specifics, but an anecdotal trip would be leaving SDF around 2am and flying 4hours to BUR. You don't feel too bad at takeoff, but by the time you arrive and have to land that wide body on a 6,000' runway at max runway landing wt, you're hanging in the straps. I'm in my last decade here and can't imagine doing those sorts of trips at our age, with rapidly slowing growth on the horizon. Enjoy Delta.

If in your shoes (I was an early 40s mil retiree when I came here), I would plan on staying at Delta. You should move to the Delta domicile you like the most that you will be able to hold within the first 24 months and then just enjoy the good life.

Getting a ten year pension here (UPS) would add a healthy $40k+/yr to your bottom line in retirement, but if you already have a 30 year mil pension Delta’s B plan should be more than adequate to carry you through retirement.

Congratulations on your offer. It’s a great problem to have. Scheduling is a hot topic here. Financially speaking UPS/FED EX is head and shoulders above everyone. That pension is worth an extra 1-2 million depending on your age. But you have to look at the bigger picture. Will I commute, seniority progression, hiring, upgrades, etc. ? Delta has four month upgrades. I can’t imagine those rosters as bad as ours. We seemed to have slowed down hiring. But aviation is dynamic and can change -yesterday.

UPS is not head and shoulders above anyone and will be below everyone once this round of contracts get signed. I’ve kept tabs with friends at all the legacies and our gross isn’t, nor has been, blowing anyone out of the water. Now if we are all earning guarantee, that is a different story. Pension is good for diversity but not worth an extra 1-2M over the retirement plans the legacy crowd has. Schedules are worse for junior people mostly due to the time of day we operate in.

The night flying example given by someone else above isn’t very representative so here’s a better one: Depart Louisville at 3 am (2am sign-in, 1 am wakeup),and fly to OAK. 1 hr ground time then fly to ONT, landing 6-7am (9-10 EST). Layover until an 8pm van then fly ONT PHX RFD (ORD suburb), sit for 2hrs then fly RFD PIT arriving hotel around 7am EST. Layover until 9pm van, FLY PIT to SDF, sit sort for an hour or 2 then fly to Albany GA, quickturn ro head to Pensecola, again arriving hotel around 7 am. You’ll get a ticket on passenger airlines to fly back to Louisville that evening. Example of a bad single day trip could be leaving SDF at 1am to DFW, then to MCO, then to SDF, arriving 9am. Do that 4X per week for 3/4 weeks (These are called midnight turns). That’s the worst of it. If you can shift your clock and keep these kinds of schedules they are manageable but UPS likes to mix things up which is where the misery comes from. These trips are grouped together in what we call Base Trip lines - a mixed bag of trip types, lengths, and time of day. The majority aren’t commutable (3-5 required per month). These kinds of trips start to improve when a CML is put on both ends, or a single leg vs 2-3 on a day or 2 of the trip, maybe they switch to day flying midway. Sometimes you get a 32hr layover stuffed in here and there but the worst of the worst lines have very little of this. A good single day trip is a 4am departure, 1 leg out to somewhere close, sit there (sleep in a quiet room) for 3-4 hrs, and fly back. Home by 11 am. Really agressive trip trading with open time and dropping on the trip board can usually help with bad lines and sometimes you can get a really good schedule doing this. Sometimes…

If you don’t get any of those lines as a bottom feeder you’ll get Reserve-A which is midnight to noon call period, and mostly in a 7 on-off scheme. 1.5hr report time in SDF. It sucks but with block hours down guys are reporting they aren’t getting utilized every day. The bottom ones usually are the more difficult ones to commute to: weekend start days or finishes (UPS doesn’t fly much on saturday afternoon to sunday afternoon).

I’m in some degree of agreement that UPS/FX aren’t currently the best place to go to for the average pilot but I don’t think its as definitive as some suggest. Just a few months ago the legacies looked questionable, now exploding -> they are somewhat volatile where the X’s (5X and FX) are more stable and have been for the past 20 years. With that stability comes periods of stagnation. Is what it is. Delta’s contract looks good with its pay rates but it was far from being a home run. The X’s have held better pay rates than the legacies as well as other contract areas (retirement, vacation, health care bennies). No reason to think we will fall behind on this round of pattern bargaining. Delta looks good today, Brown might look really good tomorrow (well, in a couple of weeks.). Lots of word coming from the company talking to the school house these last couple weeks suggesting hiring will return this summer (though at a much slower pace). Retirements will soon start to kick in, theres talk about some limited international growth, and a replacement for the MD. Then the new contract on the horizon. No trying to sell Brown as much as saying don’t write it off so quickly. Hope this helps some of you. Good Luck!

Thank you
 

[QUOTE=FTv3;3579153]UPS is not head and shoulders above anyone and will be below everyone once this round of contracts get signed. I’ve kept tabs with friends at all the legacies and our gross isn’t, nor has been, blowing anyone out of the water. Now if we are all earning guarantee, that is a different story. Pension is good for diversity but not worth an extra 1-2M over the retirement plans the legacy crowd has. Schedules are worse for junior people mostly due to the time of day we operate in.

The night flying example given by someone else above isn’t very representative so here’s a better one: Depart Louisville at 3 am (2am sign-in, 1 am wakeup),and fly to OAK. 1 hr ground time then fly to ONT, landing 6-7am (9-10 EST). Layover until an 8pm van then fly ONT PHX RFD (ORD suburb), sit for 2hrs then fly RFD PIT arriving hotel around 7am EST. Layover until 9pm van, FLY PIT to SDF, sit sort for an hour or 2 then fly to Albany GA, quickturn ro head to Pensecola, again arriving hotel around 7 am. You’ll get a ticket on passenger airlines to fly back to Louisville that evening. Example of a bad single day trip could be leaving SDF at 1am to DFW, then to MCO, then to SDF, arriving 9am. Do that 4X per week for 3/4 weeks (These are called midnight turns). That’s the worst of it. If you can shift your clock and keep these kinds of schedules they are manageable but UPS likes to mix things up which is where the misery comes from. These trips are grouped together in what we call Base Trip lines - a mixed bag of trip types, lengths, and time of day. The majority aren’t commutable (3-5 required per month). These kinds of trips start to improve when a CML is put on both ends, or a single leg vs 2-3 on a day or 2 of the trip, maybe they switch to day flying midway. Sometimes you get a 32hr layover stuffed in here and there but the worst of the worst lines have very little of this. A good single day trip is a 4am departure, 1 leg out to somewhere close, sit there (sleep in a quiet room) for 3-4 hrs, and fly back. Home by 11 am. Really agressive trip trading with open time and dropping on the trip board can usually help with bad lines and sometimes you can get a really good schedule doing this. Sometimes…

If you don’t get any of those lines as a bottom feeder you’ll get Reserve-A which is midnight to noon call period, and mostly in a 7 on-off scheme. 1.5hr report time in SDF. It sucks but with block hours down guys are reporting they aren’t getting utilized every day. The bottom ones usually are the more difficult ones to commute to: weekend start days or finishes (UPS doesn’t fly much on saturday afternoon to sunday afternoon).

I’m in some degree of agreement that UPS/FX aren’t currently the best place to go to for the average pilot but I don’t think its as definitive as some suggest. Just a few months ago the legacies looked questionable, now exploding -> they are somewhat volatile where the X’s (5X and FX) are more stable and have been for the past 20 years. With that stability comes periods of stagnation. Is what it is. Delta’s contract looks good with its pay rates but it was far from being a home run. The X’s have held better pay rates than the legacies as well as other contract areas (retirement, vacation, health care bennies). No reason to think we will fall behind on this round of pattern bargaining. Delta looks good today, Brown might look really good tomorrow (well, in a couple of weeks.). Lots of word coming from the company talking to the school house these last couple weeks suggesting hiring will return this summer (though at a much slower pace). Retirements will soon start to kick in, theres talk about some limited international growth, and a replacement for the MD. Then the new contract on the horizon. No trying to sell Brown as much as saying don’t write it off so quickly. Hope this helps some of you. Good Luck![/QUO

All these responses have been hugely helpful - THANKS

Just want to thank all of the regulars on here (FT, Tnkr, MD, Pre, Boiler, 2078, flyguy, jet, UPSFO, Hella, etc) for your insights and advice about flying at Brown, even dating back years. Really helpful for those on the outside looking in trying to make big life decisions. Cheers guys and gals.

Agreed with above 2 posts. These insights from UPS pilots are very beneficial for those of us trying to decide which path to take. I know it’s an effort to write out your thoughts online like this, but thank you.

I’m in the pool but started elsewhere in the interim; I think it’s a blessing in disguise as I have more time to gain information about a huge life decision.

43 year old (22 years left of part 121 flying assumed).

Gun to your head, must choose right now, 7-Feb start dates with UPS and Delta. Which do you choose?! Bonus points of you include the why.