gloopy

Because in that case we'd just transfer existing pax that currently fly on us and our networks, including on our metal, to their hubs and their metal.

And in no case should we tolerate new ticket sales from other countries to and from the US on the ME3 as those were never part of any agreements.



Please. First of all the ME3 are coming for them just as soon as they're done with the pax carriers. Secondly, the existing demand could be shared equitably between the involved nations. They still need cargo flown and we would still fly a lot of it. Finally, no one is saying to "rescind" open skies. Only that the agreements be fair and mutual. US airlines flying 2 777's to DXB in exchange for what will soon be dozens (and dozens) of 777's/A380's is a raw, one sided deal for us. You know that. This is why its being looked at and that is why the defenders of ME3 are so scared (and angry) about their little dual subsidized one sided gravy train coming to an end.


Well technically aren't you supposed to pay tax on over 85K? Is that "uncivilized"?

I have no problem with an iron worker or telecom tech or whatever going to any country and getting the tax loophole break if they qualify, because what they are doing isn't a direct assault on US jobs and industry. Even an airline pilot in a market that doesn't threaten the US, like intra Africa flying for example. But what the ME3 are trying to do is incredibly hostile to the US and its workers in the aviation industry. Current US tax code is a primary recruiting tool for ME3 to attract US pilots to help wage economic war against our industry and workers. That can no longer go unnoticed. Don't worry, ME3 has more than enough money to pay those taxes for you, plus the tax on the tax they pay for you. It will just help make their costs go up to a more fair level. Cutting their Boeing welfare check will also help accomplish this.



Stick it to the man then. I get your hubris. I do. I'm sure you're doing the expat gig "just to feed your family" or whatever. Well we have families to feed too and ME3 is on a scorched earth war path to take as much "food from our tables" as they can.

Some ALPA carriers did help by paying furloughed pilots health insurance via assessments. And we all know that even if ALPA provided health insurance for airlines that went out of business you'd still have taken the job you did, and you'd still be lobbying the same point of view. And if your airlines shuts down, or furloughs you or whatever, they won't be providing you health insurance either. But you knew that.

I'm not sure how much weight that carries at UAL, but I'm in favor of such a policy and think it should definately carry weight. So I agree that should be something we should do. But it'll never be a 100% flow, and you'd still have taken the ME3 job. Will ME3 help pay for the American ALPA brothers' health insurance and financial assistance if our carriers furlough and close down?

You do what you gotta do, and we'll do what we gotta do. Lines are being drawn and you have chosen your side. Good luck in the ME3's attempt to poach our international aviation industry. I'm sure you'll remember us fondly, if not smugly, from the left seat of your brand new wide body.


Because of retirements and a mainline narrowbody shift from a whole lot of RJ's to just a lot of RJ's.

I've stated several times that we should hire ME3 pilots with extreme prejudice. All at once, for a crippling effect on those predatory airlines. At least the ones that would be willing to come back. I've heard of several getting hired, but I don't know how many relative to how many have active applications in. What percentage of current ME3 pilots would you guesstimate have active apps in at US airlines and would come back (as a new hire FO or perhaps a furlough bypass that still has recall rights?)


ME3 is trying to take a "giant dump" all over US airline workers. Look at their maniacal growth plans and US ambitions. They are flat out coming for our jobs in a major way that far, far exceeds anything that can be called fair and balanced "open skies". If you get your way, there will be a lot of current ALPA (and APA etc) pilots in a world of hurt in the coming years as the EK's of the world hit critical mass and barf hundreds of thousands to millions of seats per day onto existing markets.

On the other hand, soccer stadiums and pretty flight attendants with hats. So yay for that.

Stay classy, and try not to trip on your hubris. Maybe you'll get your way and we'll all bow down to ME3 and surrender our jobs and beg to come over as a direct entry FO with no taxes. But not if we have anything to say about it. The battle is far from won, but it appears we just may have a chance at out lobbying ME3's unlimitd war chest. We'll see.

gloopy

Let's hope so.

Probe

I personally hope the US imposes protectionist policies, but I am not hopeful. I am also not worried about it, as there is nothing I can do about it.

The only constant in in the world is change. If the world's aviation industry changes to the same model as most other industries, there is nothing I can do about it but roll with the punches. It is us these airlines will have to hire.

I flew overseas for 4 of my 20 year commercial aviation career. They were by far the best years of my career. I can't wait to go back.

But not the sandbox. I supposed if they were the only ones hiring, and I really needed the job, I would. Hopefully neither of those scenarios will force my hand.

As far as taxes and competition, you don't know US tax law that well. "Income earned on or over international waters" is considered US income, subject to US tax. It cannot be excluded by the foreign income exclusion. So when Emirates if flying their shiny new 380 to JFK, competing with US legacy carriers, if the plane is full of US pilots, they will pay US income tax for a large portion of that flight.

RJSAviator76

Again missing the point Gloopy... If AA flies to Doha and the pax connect to Karachi, Mumbai, Bahrain, Riyadh, Seychelles, Nairobi, why on earth do you care if they fly out Doha on QR under AA codeshare?! My whole point is that I'd like to see AA B-777 do the to/from sector under codeshare agreement from AA's hubs to Doha where they'll exercise that codeshare. That means more B-777 jobs at AA.

You got your panties in the twist over Milan to JFK. Understandably so... but I think you need to go back and re-read what I've been saying - using the Gulf hubs to connect with ME3 codeshare and having US carriers provide some lift to the Gulf hubs because as it stands right now, we have pitiful presence here.


You may see a challenge to you from the passenger perspective. Fedex and UPS thrive on their overseas business and hubs. Atlas has long-term EY contract, and I regularly taxi past B-748's in AUH painted in Etihad livery where it says "operated by Atlas." They were also doing EK heavy lift if I'm not mistaken. UPS and Fedex maintain a substantial presence overseas and maintain hubs abroad as well. If we enable protectionist policies, you'd really hose those two.

Actually, FEIE is 98k now and that's not counting housing deduction or if your spouse is working. We are all required to report our worldwide income and file tax returns just like you. But unlike you, we are also subject to additional reporting requirements such as FBAR if your foreign accounts at any point in the year exceed aggregate balance of $10,000 USD, you need to report that to Dept. of Treasury.

Or how's this one for you... as an expat American, I am ineligible for many investment opportunities here on account of my citizenship. Why? Read up on FATCA (Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act). For example, I was denied being able to purchase Whole Life Insurance policy here because of FATCA. Retirement account? Hahah... dream on.

'I was terrified we'd lose all our money': banks tell US customers they won't work with Americans | Money | The Guardian

Imagine this happening to you in the US.


How's ME3 different from say Lufthansa? Or BA? Or Air France? All of these have more flights to the US than ME3. They already blanketed the US cities. Codeshare? What stopped US3 from doing this with ME3 early on? Yes, the ME3 are aggressive, and I want to see US3 become aggressive as well - not whiny and resorting to emotional protectionism and isolationism that just won't work.


Actually, it's not. Overseas, the pay structures are much flatter than they are in the US. In other words, new hires don't have to be on welfare for a year or two or three before they start making a decent paycheck. And again... most of us wouldn't be here if there were jobs back home when we came here. Now that there are jobs back home, most of us want to go home and forego these "tax benefits." But it's not so easy...


So in other words, we were left on our own... what would you do?


Uhh... read again about most American ME3 pilots looking to come back and why did most end up in these parts. It ain't to chase the "tax-free" lifestyle and getting chauffeured to work.

My side is with the US carriers as most of American expats'. We want to see US carriers flourish. Where we disagree is how to go about it. It would behoove you to listen and not be a know-it-all.


Agreed. I would say at least 70-90% would come back and start over on the bottom of the list. That's a pretty big number. Just yesterday, I was hanging out with a friend from EK (B-777 captain in his mid-30's). He's been trying to get in at US3 or SWA... no luck so far. Has a degree, thousands of hours of jet PIC.... no luck so far. Would have the biggest grin on his face being a narrow body FO at a major back home, and that's the sentiment shared by most Americans abroad.

And yes, you're right, it would be a major kick in the groin to ME3 if American pilots were hired en-masse back home... but we know that ain't gonna happen.

You also need to drop this notion that US pilots at ME3 are your enemy. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried...

gloopy

Great. But we should extend it to all income starting from dollar one with no exemptions. Its a recruiting tool used by economically hostile companies/countries. The last thing we should be doing is facilitating their recruiting for them. If EU followed suit it would at least force them to instantly raise their pilot pay costs probably 30-40% or so because they'd be forced to pay it for them or park their fleets. Win win.

gloopy

I don't think too many pax from the US are transferring to those obscure destinations on a daily basis. Hardly near enough to fill a 777, even when you do add in the relatively small amounts of US-ME3 tourists and contractors. Especially in light of the current capacity and frequency.

We would be taking pax there to transfer to India, China, Africa and even Europe…many places that we fly direct to on our own metal and others that our partners currently fly to where we at least already get JV share of the feed on our metal to their hubs.

Any real O&D demand to ME3 cities, which is a small fraction of existing and especially projected capacity growth, would be done by ME3 and US airlines sharing that capacity on a plane for plane basis. That's fair. But that's not what ME3 wants. They want it all.



No buts about it. This is one of the biggest threats we're facing period. If this is allowed to stand, and even expand into other EU cities, US airlines will be in grave danger and it won't take long.

No we wouldn't. Its a pathetic straw man argument for you to imply we're advocating instantly eliminating any and all foreign hubs by any airline anywhere ever. We need to address and enforce open skies airlines with ME3 because they are on the war path hell bent on taking our industry over by blackening our skies with 777/380's to every major city to levels unprecidented in human history. If they win, game over for us. At least it would hose all those ALPA pilots that didn't brother up for you though, so theres that.

ME3 couldn't retaliate in the slightest, because they still need cargo. At least half of that cargo would be flown by US cargo carriers because they'd also be protected in a true open and fair skies agreement. By the way ME3 are coming for our cargo carriers too. They've just backburnered it somewhat while they launch their major assault on our passenger sector first. They don't have the planes and pilots yet to fully impliment their egotistical manidfest destiny.

So spare us the fake concern we know you don't have for US cargo pilots. And in any case, we're under no moral or ethical obligation to devistate our passenger markets just to hold up the cargo part of things. Theres a lot more pax pilots effected by this anyway.

Great. You're making my point for me. No one says you don't have to go through the hassle of filling out returns or whatever. A large portion of your income is tax free and that is a direct recruiting tool that is largly responsibile for the pilot numbers you have there. Its time for us to look at ending that in light of the severity of the non competitive dual subsidized predatory growth response we're seeing. The absolute least we can do is stop paying and subsidizing for ME3 to destroy our international passenger industry.


We all face crushing tax burdens. Part of that is because we pay to defend fake royals on the other side of the world while we pay them to take our airplanes to use against us. Maybe we could lower all our tax burdens if we stopped doing that, especially if we started recouping some of the ME3 job fair perk lost revenue that those pilots aren't paying.




And we already have many many many times more flights to their cities than we do or ever will to the ME3 cities. We share the flying and pax in a mostly equal proportion. Which is exactly what you don't want to see happen with ME3. Your answer is for us to just overfly their network and force non existant demand into those 3 cities to make up for them raiding our nation. Not going to happen. If US airlines fly 2 flights a day to ME3 thats all they should be allowed to fly to the US. If EU flies 100 flights a day to the US, then we can and already do fly 100 to the EU because the realistic market demand is there.


There was a time when legacy airlines started out at 24 an hour, some with no health benefits. Those days are over. DL starts at 70 and is at the end of the current contract about to get raises. I think AA is pushing 80. UAL is a lower rate but pays a more generous guarantee while in training. Second year at any of them is around 100k a year. If that drives you to go on welfare then I don't think you know what welfare even is.

Look I don't expect you to quit, stop your income, move back and hope for the best while trying to get a flying job while you don't have one and are rapidly losing currency. I understand you have bills to pay. I get that. But the growth trend and momentum of ME3 has to be stopped or there will end up being a lot more pilots ending up in your shoes. Im in favor of hiring expats especially those that left during the lean times, as well as now to put the hurt on the airlines that are hell bent on harming US airlines.

I'd be very interested in seeing any actual data on how many US expat pilots want to come back and have active apps in.


No but the tax benefits our tax code enables is a primary recruiting tool for the ME3. Its time we at least take that advantage away from them. They would have to instantly true up the pay or risk parking their EGO based fleet but at least we wouldn't be helping them as much with it.


It could happen. Especially if our government bows down to ME3 and their lobbying dollars and allows them to pillage our networks. What they are attempting to do with their zillion to 2 flight schedule to the ME3 airports is bad enough. If they are allowed to take over EU routes its game over for us. We will end up like QANTAS. A husk of our former selves and possibly on the way out entirely. They must be stopped, and its going to take a multifaceted effort.

I don't think that. I fully realize that folks were unemployed by furloughs or shutdowns in the lean years and needed income. Some went there, and I don't have a problem with that. I also understand that although there is a lot of retirement based hiring here now, its only started a year or so ago and not everyone that deserves to be hired has yet been hired. I'm also in favor of hiring US pilots, particularly those that left during the bad times, both because its the right thing to do by them and also because it would at least slow down the unprecidented predatory growth of ME3 carriers.

I'm not against you. Just what your employers are trying to do to us.

Typhoonpilot

Gloopy:


You really need to stop talking about this issue. It shows a complete lack of understanding of the world tax system. Only one or two other countries in the world tax their citizens on global income.

The U.S. has the foreign earned income exclusion for Americans working overseas because they are not using the services that tax dollars are normally meant to pay for. That includes public schools, roads, police department, fire department, etc, etc, etc.

While a U.S. citizen gets a tax break they also must pay exorbitant amounts of money for their child's education should they wish to enroll them in a good school. Even at a company like Emirates that advertises tuition reimbursement the amount they give is not even half the cost of a good American school. So the Americans at Emirates and the other ME carriers who have kids are not getting near the "tax free" salary that you think they are.

In the early days at EK many Americans with two kids or more really struggled to make ends meet while paying the high tuition costs. Many opted for the second tier schools because the cost of American School of Dubai was seen as too high.

I've heard of a number of Americans leaving China over the same issue.

That is an interpretation by the IRS that is a real stretch. Fortunately those who have been audited for it can easily prove that their percentage of total working hours over international waters is less than 5%. Still, I actively bid for trips that did not go over water for very long just to be safe


Typhoonpilot

Typhoonpilot

Keep up the good fight RJS. Sadly logic and common business sense are not working real well when debating. You and I both know of all the revenue potential out there in the world, but the xenophobes who have never been to Dubai or anywhere in the Middle East, India, Africa, etc can't see it.

The lack of business sense and arrogance of senior ALPA pilots, in part, doomed us to the RJ era. Now they are going down the same path with this issue. Nobody can talk sense to them because they know everything and, by god, they are right!!



Typhoonpilot

Drofdeb

^^lol. RJ pilots?? What is that ? . And if such a thing does exist, it in no way affects me or subsidizes my paycheck. I'm blind to all facts but those that support my position. Long live the USSA

Probe

There is nothing wrong with the amount they pay. If there was, they would have no pilots. Why don't you make the same argument about American RJ FO's, willing to work for 19 dollars and hour while trying to figure out how to pay off the 80K in loans they took out to pay to go to Riddle? Aren't they undercutting the value of the rest of us?

The ME carriers pay an adequate amount of money to recruit the pilots they need. If they wanted to pay less, all they would have to do is lower the requirements, and there recruitment mailboxes would be full of underpaid RJ guys and PTF pilots.

Pilots are *****s, including me and you. When my US airline lowered my pay, I voted with my feet and left, for a long time. The other 99% did not.