Restricted ATP for NFOs?
09-01-2014, 03:49 PM
#31
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Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes
§61.160 Aeronautical experience—airplane category restricted privileges.
(a) Except for a person who has been removed from flying status for lack of proficiency or because of a disciplinary action involving aircraft operations, a U.S. military pilot or former U.S. military pilot may apply for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category multiengine class rating or an airline transport pilot certificate concurrently with an airplane type rating with a minimum of 750 hours of total time as a pilot if the pilot presents:
(1) An official Form DD-214 (Certificate of Release or Discharge from Active Duty) indicating that the person was honorably discharged from the U.S. Armed Forces or an official U.S. Armed Forces record that shows the pilot is currently serving in the U.S. Armed Forces; and
(2) An official U.S. Armed Forces record that shows the person graduated from a U.S. Armed Forces undergraduate pilot training school and received a rating qualification as a military pilot.
[Doc. No. FAA-2010-0100, 78 FR 42375, July 15, 2013]
(a) Except for a person who has been removed from flying status for lack of proficiency or because of a disciplinary action involving aircraft operations, a U.S. military pilot or former U.S. military pilot may apply for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category multiengine class rating or an airline transport pilot certificate concurrently with an airplane type rating with a minimum of 750 hours of total time as a pilot if the pilot presents:
(1) An official Form DD-214 (Certificate of Release or Discharge from Active Duty) indicating that the person was honorably discharged from the U.S. Armed Forces or an official U.S. Armed Forces record that shows the pilot is currently serving in the U.S. Armed Forces; and
(2) An official U.S. Armed Forces record that shows the person graduated from a U.S. Armed Forces undergraduate pilot training school and received a rating qualification as a military pilot.
[Doc. No. FAA-2010-0100, 78 FR 42375, July 15, 2013]
09-01-2014, 04:33 PM
#32
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This entire argument is moot. An NFO/WSO/CSO is not authorized to accomplish a takeoff nor landing. Only a graduate of the respective flight school with a pilot rating may accomplish and log these events. Just because you have a set of controls at your crew station, does not mean you can log PIC time if you aren't rated as a military pilot. And yes I've heard of NFO/WSO's landing, but if the DO/Ops O had learned of it, there would have been FEB's for all my friends. FAA rules don't apply in these cases. The first question you may hear in an interview could be "Do you have a military instrument qual as a NAV and how many approaches have you flown as a NAV?" The answer is none, so only your civilian time counts.
09-01-2014, 05:16 PM
#34
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Originally Posted by Pavedickey
This entire argument is moot. An NFO/WSO/CSO is not authorized to accomplish a takeoff nor landing. Only a graduate of the respective flight school with a pilot rating may accomplish and log these events. Just because you have a set of controls at your crew station, does not mean you can log PIC time if you aren't rated as a military pilot. And yes I've heard of NFO/WSO's landing, but if the DO/Ops O had learned of it, there would have been FEB's for all my friends. FAA rules don't apply in these cases. The first question you may hear in an interview could be "Do you have a military instrument qual as a NAV and how many approaches have you flown as a NAV?" The answer is none, so only your civilian time counts.
09-01-2014, 06:34 PM
#36
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Originally Posted by galaxy flyer
FAR 61.160 a (2) says you have to be a military PILOT, how does a Nav become a pilot suddenly. This is a silly argument regarding a sloppy, but creative, reading of the FARs.
.gf
.gf
The FAR referenced was 61.159. The one about logging time for an ATP. Not 61.160. The one about military pilots qualifying for an ATP with 750 hours.
09-01-2014, 06:40 PM
#37
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Yes, really. Neither the F-4, not the S-3 require a SIC, navs are not pilots under either the military or the FAA rules. They happen to be in seat with controls and trying to log time as something they are not--pilots.
The restricted ATP requires applicants to graduate pilot training. I've nothing against navs, but just let us follow the regs as written, not as we wish them.
GF
The restricted ATP requires applicants to graduate pilot training. I've nothing against navs, but just let us follow the regs as written, not as we wish them.
GF
09-01-2014, 07:05 PM
#38
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Okay, here's 61.159 section c. Still no relief for NAV/NFO's. The "(i) Required to have more than one pilot flight crewmember" means there is no SIC either required or authorized, so you can't log SIC in an aircraft that has no SIC requirement. 61.160 limits the ATP rating using mil experience, to graduates of a military pilot school. GF is spot on with this.
(c) A commercial pilot may credit the following second-in-command flight time or flight-engineer flight time toward the 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot required by paragraph (a) of this section:
(1) Second-in-command time, provided the time is acquired in an airplane—
(i) Required to have more than one pilot flight crewmember by the airplane's flight manual, type certificate, or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted;
(c) A commercial pilot may credit the following second-in-command flight time or flight-engineer flight time toward the 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot required by paragraph (a) of this section:
(1) Second-in-command time, provided the time is acquired in an airplane—
(i) Required to have more than one pilot flight crewmember by the airplane's flight manual, type certificate, or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted;
09-01-2014, 07:09 PM
#39
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Posts: 121
Originally Posted by galaxy flyer
Yes, really. Neither the F-4, not the S-3 require a SIC, navs are not pilots under either the military or the FAA rules. They happen to be in seat with controls and trying to log time as something they are not--pilots.
The restricted ATP requires applicants to graduate pilot training. I've nothing against navs, but just let us follow the regs as written, not as we wish them.
GF
The restricted ATP requires applicants to graduate pilot training. I've nothing against navs, but just let us follow the regs as written, not as we wish them.
GF
"61.159 (c) A commercial pilot may credit the following second-in-command flight time or flight-engineer flight time toward the 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot required by paragraph (a) of this section:
(1) Second-in-command time, provided the time is acquired in an airplane—
(i) Required to have more than one pilot flight crewmember by the airplane’s flight manual, type certificate, or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted;"
Nothing to do with 61.160, landings, approaches, etc...
The sole question IMHO is whether the FAA would consider an NFO/WSO required at a station which has flight controls, a "pilot flight crewmember". If not, why does the station have flight controls... generally reserved for pilots.
FWIW I think the answer is no, but I see how you could convince a FSDO otherwise...
09-01-2014, 08:03 PM
#40
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Originally Posted by Spur
Wow. Really.
The FAR referenced was 61.159. The one about logging time for an ATP. Not 61.160. The one about military pilots qualifying for an ATP with 750 hours.
The FAR referenced was 61.159. The one about logging time for an ATP. Not 61.160. The one about military pilots qualifying for an ATP with 750 hours.
The other problem is this:
61.153 Eligibility requirements: General.
To be eligible for an airline transport pilot certificate, a person must:
(a) Meet the following age requirements:
(1) For an airline transport pilot certificate obtained under the aeronautical experience requirements of §§61.159, 61.161, or 61.163, be at least 23 years of age; or
(2) For an airline transport pilot certificate obtained under the aeronautical experience requirements of §61.160, be at least 21 years of age.
(b) Be able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language. If the applicant is unable to meet one of these requirements due to medical reasons, then the Administrator may place such operating limitations on that applicant's pilot certificate as are necessary for the safe operation of the aircraft;
(c) Be of good moral character;
(d) Meet at least one of the following requirements:
(1) Holds a commercial pilot certificate with an instrument rating issued under this part;
(2) Meet the military experience requirements under §61.73 of this part to qualify for a commercial pilot certificate, and an instrument rating if the person is a rated military pilot or former rated military pilot of an Armed Force of the United States; or
To be eligible for an airline transport pilot certificate, a person must:
(a) Meet the following age requirements:
(1) For an airline transport pilot certificate obtained under the aeronautical experience requirements of §§61.159, 61.161, or 61.163, be at least 23 years of age; or
(2) For an airline transport pilot certificate obtained under the aeronautical experience requirements of §61.160, be at least 21 years of age.
(b) Be able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language. If the applicant is unable to meet one of these requirements due to medical reasons, then the Administrator may place such operating limitations on that applicant's pilot certificate as are necessary for the safe operation of the aircraft;
(c) Be of good moral character;
(d) Meet at least one of the following requirements:
(1) Holds a commercial pilot certificate with an instrument rating issued under this part;
(2) Meet the military experience requirements under §61.73 of this part to qualify for a commercial pilot certificate, and an instrument rating if the person is a rated military pilot or former rated military pilot of an Armed Force of the United States; or
61.73
...(h) Documents for qualifying for a pilot certificate and rating. The following documents are required for a person to apply for a pilot certificate and rating:
(1) An official U.S. Armed Forces record that shows the person is or was a military pilot.
(2) An official U.S. Armed Forces record that shows the person graduated from a U.S. Armed Forces undergraduate pilot training school and received a rating qualification as a military pilot.
(3) An official U.S. Armed Forces record that shows the pilot passed a pilot proficiency check and instrument proficiency check in an aircraft as a military pilot.
...(h) Documents for qualifying for a pilot certificate and rating. The following documents are required for a person to apply for a pilot certificate and rating:
(1) An official U.S. Armed Forces record that shows the person is or was a military pilot.
(2) An official U.S. Armed Forces record that shows the person graduated from a U.S. Armed Forces undergraduate pilot training school and received a rating qualification as a military pilot.
(3) An official U.S. Armed Forces record that shows the pilot passed a pilot proficiency check and instrument proficiency check in an aircraft as a military pilot.
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