305 captains
12-12-2018, 12:13 PM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2018
Posts: 112
Originally Posted by DarkSideMoon
My rough math says something like 50 new captain vacancies, obviously attrition factors in as to how many actually upgrade.
12-12-2018, 12:54 PM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,948
Originally Posted by CanWeGetTheLeft
290 captains currently on FLICA, including those awarded it on the last vacancy.
12-12-2018, 01:02 PM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2018
Posts: 112
Originally Posted by DarkSideMoon
Does that include management pilots? I added together all the captain slots (filled and vacant) on the last vacancy announcement and it totaled something like 260.
I’d love to be wrong. I like your methodology a lot more, I just don’t know that it’s how they are interpreting this.
12-12-2018, 01:17 PM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,948
Originally Posted by CanWeGetTheLeft
Yes. Includes management pilots and people on long term leave. My understanding from talking with my union reps is that that if you are on the seniority list, you count as one of the 305.
I’d love to be wrong. I like your methodology a lot more, I just don’t know that it’s how they are interpreting this.
I’d love to be wrong. I like your methodology a lot more, I just don’t know that it’s how they are interpreting this.
12-13-2018, 10:43 AM
#15
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2014
Position: Retired
Posts: 63
"This whole thing shows me that A. The company doesn’t give a flying **** about the contract. B. The company will continue to willfully violate the contract because it’ll take at least two years for the grievance process to take place and will result in no monetary penalties. Just something to keep in mind for future TA’s. Without ironclad language..."
And what did you expect from this, or any Regional Airline ???
The industry's business model and legal strategy is based upon over-promising and under-delivering, making illusory promises wrapped around vagueness and fine-print caveats, and pushing the limits, knowing the penalty, civil sanction, or ultimate expense, assuming they're are even caught (and the catchers have the resources to pursue it), is far less than the profits made by their transgressions.
As for your "ironclad language", in contract law there's no such thing, least of all in the aviation industry. Regional airline contracts, CPP's, "flows", employment bonuses, scope clauses, hiring or interview assurances, etc. aren't worth the paper they're written on, because the entities themselves have a long track record of not being truthful or trustworthy. You need not look far and, even then, Chapter 11 merely enriches the airlines at the expense of the employees who take the risk.
When will the masses learn neither your regional airline employer, or its incestuous-wth-management "union" simply don't care about honoring what they promised yesterday ~ tomorrow's another day and they can play the game again.
12-13-2018, 12:58 PM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,948
Originally Posted by DonConsult67
And what did you expect from this, or any Regional Airline ???
The industry's business model and legal strategy is based upon over-promising and under-delivering, making illusory promises wrapped around vagueness and fine-print caveats, and pushing the limits, knowing the penalty, civil sanction, or ultimate expense, assuming they're are even caught (and the catchers have the resources to pursue it), is far less than the profits made by their transgressions.
As for your "ironclad language", in contract law there's no such thing, least of all in the aviation industry. Regional airline contracts, CPP's, "flows", employment bonuses, scope clauses, hiring or interview assurances, etc. aren't worth the paper they're written on, because the entities themselves have a long track record of not being truthful or trustworthy. You need not look far and, even then, Chapter 11 merely enriches the airlines at the expense of the employees who take the risk.
When will the masses learn neither your regional airline employer, or its incestuous-wth-management "union" simply don't care about honoring what they promised yesterday ~ tomorrow's another day and they can play the game again.
The industry's business model and legal strategy is based upon over-promising and under-delivering, making illusory promises wrapped around vagueness and fine-print caveats, and pushing the limits, knowing the penalty, civil sanction, or ultimate expense, assuming they're are even caught (and the catchers have the resources to pursue it), is far less than the profits made by their transgressions.
As for your "ironclad language", in contract law there's no such thing, least of all in the aviation industry. Regional airline contracts, CPP's, "flows", employment bonuses, scope clauses, hiring or interview assurances, etc. aren't worth the paper they're written on, because the entities themselves have a long track record of not being truthful or trustworthy. You need not look far and, even then, Chapter 11 merely enriches the airlines at the expense of the employees who take the risk.
When will the masses learn neither your regional airline employer, or its incestuous-wth-management "union" simply don't care about honoring what they promised yesterday ~ tomorrow's another day and they can play the game again.
Clearer language would expedite the grievance process. We have far too many loopholes in our contract that assume the company will act in a fair and equitable manner. At the very least it wouldn’t hurt anything.
12-15-2018, 10:52 AM
#17
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2014
Position: Retired
Posts: 63
Angry ??? Hardly. But accurate on all counts.
Truthful ??? On-Point, and the industry's history will validate every point I've made.
Rant ??? No way...just read the bankruptcy case files of the Delta's, United's, and American's everybody fantasizes about working for.
Interestingly, the very system most people complain about here is the very system created by the Delta's, United's and American's, but for some odd reason, most of those same people aspire to eventually work for them.
Again, just read the bankruptcy files of airlines and you'll learn how they REALLY treat employees and how CLEAR their one-sided and "ironclad" language can be. How many bankruptcies has Doug Parker been intimately involved with (and how many employees, creditors, lessors, etc. got screwed) ???
Finally, there is a reason that, unlike other industries which executives and upper management move laterally [that is, from being CEO, CFO, Upper Management, etc. of one industrial company to another], no such lateral movement has taken place out of the airline industry ~ and for good reason...no reputable company wants an executive who was made toxic by aviation, aviation culture, or who helped run their employer into bankruptcy court, often more than once.
And those are the folks you expect will "act in a fair an equitable manner".
Dream on...and BTW, ask the thousands of former Delta, United, USAir, Continental, Braniff, etc. guys about the promised "ironclad" contract pensions and "equitable" promises made to them - their retirement income, earned over a lifetime, is now being paid at 30-40 cents on the dollar by the Government's Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation; in short, compared to what they were promised in their "ironclad contracts" by those acting in a "fair and equitable manner", they're on Welfare.
The world is round and the industry will be back there again one day, and it will start with the extraneous regional airlines, businesses who refuse to learn you can't make money, over the long term, doing someone else's work.
Truthful ??? On-Point, and the industry's history will validate every point I've made.
Rant ??? No way...just read the bankruptcy case files of the Delta's, United's, and American's everybody fantasizes about working for.
Interestingly, the very system most people complain about here is the very system created by the Delta's, United's and American's, but for some odd reason, most of those same people aspire to eventually work for them.
Again, just read the bankruptcy files of airlines and you'll learn how they REALLY treat employees and how CLEAR their one-sided and "ironclad" language can be. How many bankruptcies has Doug Parker been intimately involved with (and how many employees, creditors, lessors, etc. got screwed) ???
Finally, there is a reason that, unlike other industries which executives and upper management move laterally [that is, from being CEO, CFO, Upper Management, etc. of one industrial company to another], no such lateral movement has taken place out of the airline industry ~ and for good reason...no reputable company wants an executive who was made toxic by aviation, aviation culture, or who helped run their employer into bankruptcy court, often more than once.
And those are the folks you expect will "act in a fair an equitable manner".
Dream on...and BTW, ask the thousands of former Delta, United, USAir, Continental, Braniff, etc. guys about the promised "ironclad" contract pensions and "equitable" promises made to them - their retirement income, earned over a lifetime, is now being paid at 30-40 cents on the dollar by the Government's Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation; in short, compared to what they were promised in their "ironclad contracts" by those acting in a "fair and equitable manner", they're on Welfare.
The world is round and the industry will be back there again one day, and it will start with the extraneous regional airlines, businesses who refuse to learn you can't make money, over the long term, doing someone else's work.
12-15-2018, 10:57 AM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,948
Originally Posted by DonConsult67
Angry ??? Hardly. But accurate on all counts.
Truthful ??? On-Point, and the industry's history will validate every point I've made.
Rant ??? No way...just read the bankruptcy case files of the Delta's, United's, and American's everybody fantasizes about working for.
Interestingly, the very system most people complain about here is the very system created by the Delta's, United's and American's, but for some odd reason, most of those same people aspire to eventually work for them.
Again, just read the bankruptcy files of airlines and you'll learn how they REALLY treat employees and how CLEAR their one-sided and "ironclad" language can be. How many bankruptcies has Doug Parker been intimately involved with (and how many employees, creditors, lessors, etc. got screwed) ???
Finally, there is a reason that, unlike other industries which executives and upper management move laterally [that is, from being CEO, CFO, Upper Management, etc. of one industrial company to another], no such lateral movement has taken place out of the airline industry ~ and for good reason...no reputable company wants an executive who was made toxic by aviation, aviation culture, or who helped run their employer into bankruptcy court, often more than once.
And those are the folks you expect will "act in a fair an equitable manner".
Dream on...and BTW, ask the thousands of former Delta, United, USAir, Continental, Braniff, etc. guys about the promised "ironclad" contract pensions and "equitable" promises made to them - their retirement income, earned over a lifetime, is now being paid at 30-40 cents on the dollar by the Government's Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation; in short, compared to what they were promised in their "ironclad contracts" by those acting in a "fair and equitable manner", they're on Welfare.
The world is round and the industry will be back there again one day, and it will start with the extraneous regional airlines, businesses who refuse to learn you can't make money, over the long term, doing someone else's work.
Truthful ??? On-Point, and the industry's history will validate every point I've made.
Rant ??? No way...just read the bankruptcy case files of the Delta's, United's, and American's everybody fantasizes about working for.
Interestingly, the very system most people complain about here is the very system created by the Delta's, United's and American's, but for some odd reason, most of those same people aspire to eventually work for them.
Again, just read the bankruptcy files of airlines and you'll learn how they REALLY treat employees and how CLEAR their one-sided and "ironclad" language can be. How many bankruptcies has Doug Parker been intimately involved with (and how many employees, creditors, lessors, etc. got screwed) ???
Finally, there is a reason that, unlike other industries which executives and upper management move laterally [that is, from being CEO, CFO, Upper Management, etc. of one industrial company to another], no such lateral movement has taken place out of the airline industry ~ and for good reason...no reputable company wants an executive who was made toxic by aviation, aviation culture, or who helped run their employer into bankruptcy court, often more than once.
And those are the folks you expect will "act in a fair an equitable manner".
Dream on...and BTW, ask the thousands of former Delta, United, USAir, Continental, Braniff, etc. guys about the promised "ironclad" contract pensions and "equitable" promises made to them - their retirement income, earned over a lifetime, is now being paid at 30-40 cents on the dollar by the Government's Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation; in short, compared to what they were promised in their "ironclad contracts" by those acting in a "fair and equitable manner", they're on Welfare.
The world is round and the industry will be back there again one day, and it will start with the extraneous regional airlines, businesses who refuse to learn you can't make money, over the long term, doing someone else's work.
12-15-2018, 04:50 PM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,273
Originally Posted by DonConsult67
Angry ??? Hardly. But accurate on all counts.
Truthful ??? On-Point, and the industry's history will validate every point I've made.
Rant ??? No way...just read the bankruptcy case files of the Delta's, United's, and American's everybody fantasizes about working for.
Interestingly, the very system most people complain about here is the very system created by the Delta's, United's and American's, but for some odd reason, most of those same people aspire to eventually work for them.
Again, just read the bankruptcy files of airlines and you'll learn how they REALLY treat employees and how CLEAR their one-sided and "ironclad" language can be. How many bankruptcies has Doug Parker been intimately involved with (and how many employees, creditors, lessors, etc. got screwed) ???
Finally, there is a reason that, unlike other industries which executives and upper management move laterally [that is, from being CEO, CFO, Upper Management, etc. of one industrial company to another], no such lateral movement has taken place out of the airline industry ~ and for good reason...no reputable company wants an executive who was made toxic by aviation, aviation culture, or who helped run their employer into bankruptcy court, often more than once.
And those are the folks you expect will "act in a fair an equitable manner".
Dream on...and BTW, ask the thousands of former Delta, United, USAir, Continental, Braniff, etc. guys about the promised "ironclad" contract pensions and "equitable" promises made to them - their retirement income, earned over a lifetime, is now being paid at 30-40 cents on the dollar by the Government's Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation; in short, compared to what they were promised in their "ironclad contracts" by those acting in a "fair and equitable manner", they're on Welfare.
The world is round and the industry will be back there again one day, and it will start with the extraneous regional airlines, businesses who refuse to learn you can't make money, over the long term, doing someone else's work.
Truthful ??? On-Point, and the industry's history will validate every point I've made.
Rant ??? No way...just read the bankruptcy case files of the Delta's, United's, and American's everybody fantasizes about working for.
Interestingly, the very system most people complain about here is the very system created by the Delta's, United's and American's, but for some odd reason, most of those same people aspire to eventually work for them.
Again, just read the bankruptcy files of airlines and you'll learn how they REALLY treat employees and how CLEAR their one-sided and "ironclad" language can be. How many bankruptcies has Doug Parker been intimately involved with (and how many employees, creditors, lessors, etc. got screwed) ???
Finally, there is a reason that, unlike other industries which executives and upper management move laterally [that is, from being CEO, CFO, Upper Management, etc. of one industrial company to another], no such lateral movement has taken place out of the airline industry ~ and for good reason...no reputable company wants an executive who was made toxic by aviation, aviation culture, or who helped run their employer into bankruptcy court, often more than once.
And those are the folks you expect will "act in a fair an equitable manner".
Dream on...and BTW, ask the thousands of former Delta, United, USAir, Continental, Braniff, etc. guys about the promised "ironclad" contract pensions and "equitable" promises made to them - their retirement income, earned over a lifetime, is now being paid at 30-40 cents on the dollar by the Government's Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation; in short, compared to what they were promised in their "ironclad contracts" by those acting in a "fair and equitable manner", they're on Welfare.
The world is round and the industry will be back there again one day, and it will start with the extraneous regional airlines, businesses who refuse to learn you can't make money, over the long term, doing someone else's work.
12-17-2018, 03:18 AM
#20
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2014
Position: Retired
Posts: 63
"Most should see 80% or more of their earned and accrued benefit at the time of the chapter 11 filing."
Regardless, it's still not 100% of what they agreed-to in their "ironclad contract", which is the point.
So, let's do this ~ you work for me for 30-40 years under the auspices of an "ironclad contract" with a "bargain in good faith" company. You take pay and benefit concessions when times are rough to keep the company alive (and paying you something, not nothing). When times are good, you accept scraps compared to management who made no sacrifices. Because you believed in the company, you invested one-quarter to one-half of your retirement fund in company stock (an issue left out of the discussion). As the company hit bad times, you accepted more and more concessions, for the same reasons (but management made none). Then, the bankruptcy court said your employment contract was worthless, you will be forced to take a pay cut, your benefits will be slashed, and that pension is now being pawned off to the PBGC who will dribble and drabble it to you, at their convenience when the dust settles...oh, and that stock you invested in, it's worthless now.
Sounds like a great deal, doesn't it?
Or this - next week, cash your paycheck and on your way out of the bank, give 20% of the Gross Pay (not the net the teller gave you, but the higher Gross), to the nearest trash can. Live on what's left...forever.
The point is 80% isn't 100% and too many in this business accept this sort of nonsense because the AA's, DL's, and UA's have made it the "new norm". There's nothing "norm" about it ~ it's called fraud and deceit, but because the wonderful unions, and MEC's, and union committees have done such a wonderful job [for themselves], it is the new norm because you, whether you know it or not, agreed to it.
Plan B ???
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
