Air Wisconsin Bonus Repayment - legitimate?
12-27-2019, 06:38 AM
#31
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 11,503
Originally Posted by tallow
Every one of these clawback lawsuits gets settled out of court and you will never know the terms. Anybody can file a lawsuit against you. Doesn't mean they will win, its a harassment tactic and you must decide if you want to pay a settlement to avoid legal fees to get rid of it or take it to court. Point where a judge in a courtroom has ordered a repayment of a hiring bonus or training contract.
Once again. They can sue you, they can consider it a bad debt and harass you with certain restrictions, hoping you don't know your rights or hire an attorney. Or you can pay it back because you are a good guy. Using attorneys to file questionable lawsuits to threaten and get what you want is business 101. Just ask the Trumpster. However, if it ever sees a courtroom (and it won't) they will lose.
Once again. They can sue you, they can consider it a bad debt and harass you with certain restrictions, hoping you don't know your rights or hire an attorney. Or you can pay it back because you are a good guy. Using attorneys to file questionable lawsuits to threaten and get what you want is business 101. Just ask the Trumpster. However, if it ever sees a courtroom (and it won't) they will lose.
Even if you were right - and you aren’t - IT JUST DOESN’T MATTER, because when the Air Whisky HR people are asked by the United or Delta or American Airlines HR people what their experience was with Joe Pilot and they TRUTHFULLY SAY that he ran out and reneged on a contract he signed, Joe Pilot’s chance of getting to the big time has now decreases considerably.
So yeah, if you are leaving the industry altogether and only owe $10 grand or so you can probably get away with stiffing them, because lawyer fees and collection costs may exceed what you legally owe, but I sure wouldn’t do that if you haven’t yet got the final job you intend to get in aviation. And even that you are taking the chance that HR doesn’t feel the need to make an example of you ‘pour encourager les autres.’
12-27-2019, 08:17 AM
#32
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2019
Posts: 45
Originally Posted by Excargodog
Even if you were right - and you aren’t - IT JUST DOESN’T MATTER, because when the Air Whisky HR people are asked by the United or Delta or American Airlines HR people what their experience was with Joe Pilot and they TRUTHFULLY SAY that he ran out and reneged on a contract he signed, Joe Pilot’s chance of getting to the big time has now decreases considerably.
So yeah, if you are leaving the industry altogether and only owe $10 grand or so you can probably get away with stiffing them, because lawyer fees and collection costs may exceed what you legally owe, but I sure wouldn’t do that if you haven’t yet got the final job you intend to get in aviation. And even that you are taking the chance that HR doesn’t feel the need to make an example of you ‘pour encourager les autres.’
However the debt may appear on a credit check so in that case you would have some explaining to do to other employers.
12-27-2019, 08:45 AM
#33
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2009
Posts: 841
Originally Posted by tallow
Most of these guys are leaving for the dream job so by the time Air Whiskey figures out what is going on they will already be in class. However when another employer calls all Air Whiskey HR is going to do is give them the PRIA report and confirm dates of hire and position because they aren't interested in exposing themselves to a lawsuit.
However the debt may appear on a credit check so in that case you would have some explaining to do to other employers.
However the debt may appear on a credit check so in that case you would have some explaining to do to other employers.
12-27-2019, 09:00 AM
#35
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 11,503
Originally Posted by tallow
That is a union deal. Different game because the blacklist doesn't "officially" exist. However there have been lawsuits over blacklists.
Fighting the repayment of a $10,000 signing bonus contract that you signed is as money losing for you as it may be for HR, EXCEPT HR may do it anyway to keep the REST of the newbies from reneging on their contracts.
12-27-2019, 02:45 PM
#36
In a land of unicorns
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Whale FO
Posts: 6,469
Originally Posted by tallow
Point to the case law. It isn't there. Because no good lawyer will let this get in front of a judge.
TL;DR
If the training is universal, the skills can be transferred, and can be gained from other sources than solely your employer, then the training contracts are enforceable. Such as, a hiring bonus, or a training contract for your ATP and a type rating.
Unless your employer makes promises they do not keep (such as promises a PIC type rating and only provides SIC type).
What you'll find out, is that often hiring bonuses are contracted as promissory notes. It is a legal and binding contract, where you promise to perform pilot services for a certain amount of time, and if you fail to do so, you have to pay back what they paid in advance for those said services.
Regionals go after pilots for the bonus money all the time, because they are rock solid legally.
12-27-2019, 05:57 PM
#37
On Reserve
Joined APC: Nov 2015
Posts: 20
Originally Posted by tallow
Point to the case law. It isn't there. Because no good lawyer will let this get in front of a judge.
Name one instance where a training contract has ever been enforced by a court.
Name one instance where a training contract has ever been enforced by a court.
12-27-2019, 08:44 PM
#38
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 11,503
The district court convened a hearing on the motions. After the hearing, the court entered an order granting Great Lakes' motion and denying Mr. Pittard's motion. The district court found the following facts were undisputed:
[Mr. Pittard] completed an online employment application on June 27, 2002. On the application, [Mr. Pittard] answered “Yes” to the question, “Are you willing to sign a training agreement?” Thereafter, on August 5, 2002, and prior to beginning his training with the Company, [Mr. Pittard] was presented with a Pilot Training Agreement (“Agreement”) and a Promissory Note, which [he] signed. According to the terms of the Agreement, [Mr. Pittard] agreed to reimburse [Great Lakes] the stipulated cost of his training ($7,500.00) should he resign, voluntarily terminate his employment, or be discharged at any time during his training or within fifteen (15) months of his actual hire date. [Mr. Pittard] voluntarily resigned his employment with [Great Lakes] on October 21, 2002, 37 days after his hire date. In accordance with the parties' Agreement, [Great Lakes] withheld $1,241.51 from [Mr. Pittard's] final paycheck. [Mr. Pittard] did not challenge this withholding. [Great Lakes] demanded payment of the balance owed, but [Mr. Pittard] refuses to satisfy his breach of the Agreement.
[¶ 12] The district court concluded these undisputed facts showed that the parties entered into a valid and binding agreement, and Mr. Pittard breached the agreement. The court ordered Great Lakes to submit a motion for entry of judgment together with affidavits showing the amount due under the agreement and promissory note and an application for attorney's fees and costs. Thereafter, based upon the affidavits, the district court entered judgment awarding Great Lakes $7,225.74, the amount due on the promissory note, plus $6,362.00 for attorney's fees and costs, for a total judgment of $13,587.74.
[Mr. Pittard] completed an online employment application on June 27, 2002. On the application, [Mr. Pittard] answered “Yes” to the question, “Are you willing to sign a training agreement?” Thereafter, on August 5, 2002, and prior to beginning his training with the Company, [Mr. Pittard] was presented with a Pilot Training Agreement (“Agreement”) and a Promissory Note, which [he] signed. According to the terms of the Agreement, [Mr. Pittard] agreed to reimburse [Great Lakes] the stipulated cost of his training ($7,500.00) should he resign, voluntarily terminate his employment, or be discharged at any time during his training or within fifteen (15) months of his actual hire date. [Mr. Pittard] voluntarily resigned his employment with [Great Lakes] on October 21, 2002, 37 days after his hire date. In accordance with the parties' Agreement, [Great Lakes] withheld $1,241.51 from [Mr. Pittard's] final paycheck. [Mr. Pittard] did not challenge this withholding. [Great Lakes] demanded payment of the balance owed, but [Mr. Pittard] refuses to satisfy his breach of the Agreement.
[¶ 12] The district court concluded these undisputed facts showed that the parties entered into a valid and binding agreement, and Mr. Pittard breached the agreement. The court ordered Great Lakes to submit a motion for entry of judgment together with affidavits showing the amount due under the agreement and promissory note and an application for attorney's fees and costs. Thereafter, based upon the affidavits, the district court entered judgment awarding Great Lakes $7,225.74, the amount due on the promissory note, plus $6,362.00 for attorney's fees and costs, for a total judgment of $13,587.74.
12-28-2019, 08:01 AM
#39
In a land of unicorns
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Whale FO
Posts: 6,469
Originally Posted by Excargodog
12-29-2019, 12:54 PM
#40
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2019
Posts: 47
Originally Posted by tallow
State law or contract language cannot violate US Law. In that case they are unenforceable.
Thirteenth Amendment:
Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
When you sign the contract for your training an indenture is created for the period of time specified in the contract. This kind of contract was made illegal by the Thirteenth Amendment. That is why no airline has ever tried to take someone to court over this because they have good attorneys that know it is ultimately unenforceable.
So, moral issues aside, they can't force repayment through legal means. Now, they can report it as a bad debt, they can constantly harass you according to the Fair Credit Reporting Act, and future employers may look unfavorably on it if they pull your credit report or you tell them what you did. But, they can't force you to pay it back.
Thirteenth Amendment:
Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
When you sign the contract for your training an indenture is created for the period of time specified in the contract. This kind of contract was made illegal by the Thirteenth Amendment. That is why no airline has ever tried to take someone to court over this because they have good attorneys that know it is ultimately unenforceable.
So, moral issues aside, they can't force repayment through legal means. Now, they can report it as a bad debt, they can constantly harass you according to the Fair Credit Reporting Act, and future employers may look unfavorably on it if they pull your credit report or you tell them what you did. But, they can't force you to pay it back.
Maybe you should research the 13th Amendment a little more. Maybe look in a dictionary??? Did you apply to AW and then interview - was that by choice? Did anyone force you to go to work for AW? You weren’t kidnapped and forced into being a pilot? Anyone force you to sign the contract? No...? I didn’t think so!
Involuntary servitude is just that - being forced to work against your will. I’m not a lawyer, but I’d bet with my rudimentary knowledge alone I’d win this case against you in court.
Airlines have taken people to court and won multiple times for this exact thing!
Another example - if you attend military flight training - you incur a commitment for X amount of years.
Military doctor has his/her student loans paid for by the government and then are required to stay in military for 10 years... if they choose to leave, they must repay what the government paid.
This is all standard practice with tons of case law. If you go to court, you will most likely loose - then be sued for court costs and lawyer fees.
I wouldn’t roll the dice.
Now, if you were fired, then you shouldn’t have to pay it back.
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