I hope we can share a cold on some day. This is by far the 100% truth. Ready to walk the line for 2020!

I want to know why VX gets a free 7 years of longevity (plus all these other gains) and AS doesn't

I want to know why AS ALPA never fights for ANYTHING, they just roll over as they always have (and they expect gains in 2020) The excuse of "the arbitrators will never take it seriously if we're more agressive" is crap. How did that work out in the last arbitration again? I'd rather have VX get an extra seven years shoved down my throat by an arbitrator that have the union I pay for advocate gains for the other side at my expense.

I say vote ALPA out since the MEC has no balls.

I think thats cus you dont relaize VX had guys who were at Aloha, ATA, USAirways, Midwest, etc. Give them longevity for their time there then.

Alaska 70% longevity puts VX1 with a 2000-ish AS-DOH with a ratioing of the bottom few hundred guys.
VX 15% longevity by my estimation puts VX1 with 1989ish AS-DOH.

Both actually seem a little out to lunch. I have been an advocate of the 50% weighting in this merger because of how equal a case I think each side really has.

Alaska had safety and job security coupled with some retirements, but really no real growth beyond that. There has been an annualized 2% growth in the number of pilots at Alaska since I was hired here 12 years ago. Slow and steady wins the race? Hopefully.

Virgin America, no real guarantee of being able to make a career out of the place. You took a chance to be at a newer carrier with higher growth potential - congratulations, the gamble paid off.

A 50/50 weighting seems inherently fair giving each side equal credit for the choice they made. A 50/50 weighting would pair VX1 with a 1997ish AS-DOH.

Curious.... how did AAG pilots have NO SAY on the JCBA? Wasn't it negotiated with VX pilots and the company?

When they opened it up, they agreed to a definite timeline and arbitration if needed. At that point the company just dug in, probably knowing arbitration would lean in their favor.

This company does not negotiate when they can tip the scale their way in arbitration. Arbitration is not a level playing field.

Yup, pretty much as rickair said, the “negotiation” was just a smokescreen. They never even came out with an actual proposal that we could see or build upon. It was all just done as working documents bound by NDA’s. They had faith that just like the Kasher arbitration, this one would favor their positions. They sat on their hands and bought themselves 6 extra months of cheap labor while literally laughing in our faces. (BM’s admission to sacrificing our relationship with management). I think his quote should printed out on a sticker in big bold letters next to a 2020 and placed on every rollaboard, flight case and on our next lanyard, to remind us of who the real enemy is!

It’s not a function of ALPA. If you guys had a different union, the same guys would be in charge. It’s the group that you guys elected selling you out.

You need to recall reps, which isn’t pleasant but will breakup the good ol boys club. It also helps establish the expectation that they must serve the pilots and not themselves or the company.

I have no dog in this fight but the Anchorage reps are virtually selling the base out. If I were there, I would immediately initiate a recall.

It isn't that hard....
 

Let's see, 1960 Alaska pilots, 834 VX pilots. That's a ratio of about two point three-four to one.

So top three numbers go to the top three Alaska guys, then the senior VX guy, then the two next senior Alaska guys, then the next senior VX guy, then the next two senior Alaska guys, then the next senior VX guy, then the next three Alaska guys, then a VX guy, then two Alaska Guys, then a VX guy, then two Alaska guys, then a VX guy.

That's 14 Alaska guys and six VX guys. That's a ratio of about two point three four to one.

Now wash, rinse, and repeat with the rest of both pilot lists, until the entire new list is established. Just like shuffling cards...

No Alaska guy will lose seniority to any other Alaska guy and no VX guy will lose seniority to any other VX guy, and all but the the most junior VX guy will have at least a little more room between him/herself and any potential furloughs should the economy tank than they did before

What was so damn hard about that?

In a company with no serious scope limits, you'd think you guys would have better things to fight about then going at each other.

True, but as a ticked off AirTran pilot once said, “contracts come and go, seniority is forever.” :D

Nothing is forever in this world.....except for diamonds, diamonds are forever.

Sounds good. VX pilots will be filtered in from 2007 as the starting point.

I’ve got a friend who worked for an airline that stapled one pilot group below the other. That airline is no longer in business. The top group was willing to cut off its finger to protect their own turf and ended up killing the entire hand. We all need to work together or it will kill the entire group. Hopefully arrogance and misplaced anger doesn’t destroy the potential we have working together.

64/36 ratio and add back to filter in starting 01/01/1996. Remove the add-back constraint at 01/01/2002. Go straight ratio from there until 04/2016. Model the bottom 200 to place 41 former Virgin pilots as the plug. Build the list slots by stove piping. Place all non listers 1 number above the pilot directly below them pre-merger. Date of hire placement after 4/16. Protect all captains with ratio reduction language For 50 months.

Vx started operations in 2007. That is where they should start being filtered in. The number 1 VX pilot should be right below the AS pilot that was hired when VX started. That is the starting point.

You are not fit to be in a union. You probably walked on the picket line and then slipped over for a little premium pay

Didn't Alaska not hire anyone from 2008 till 2012? Isn't this where the majority of VX pilots were hired?

You must be VX. Why should a pilot that started in 2007 be matched with a guy that was hired 30 years ago? What you are saying is a 25 year old that was hired as a co pilot by VX in 2007 will be matched with a 60 year old that was hired 30 years ago. Really?

Half of the Alaska pilots seniority list is 2006 or newer. Yes, we furloughed pilots starting in 2009. Last class was hired in 01/08 next class was 01/12

At 29 years seniority I had hoped to transfer to SFO to be number 1, not number 10 :p

No worries bro....you will. I am hoping to transfer to JFK and just be a lineholder at 19 years

Do you not understand that a relative integration by definition preserves your relative seniority? A straight DOH gives Alaska pilots a huge boost to their relative seniority. No Alaska pilot would ever be on reserve and they would be able to hold weekends off. Meanwhile, a Virgin pilot who was a line holder goes back to reserve overnight.

Remove first 300 super senior Alaska pilots and place them on the side. Then relative seniority starting at 301 (assume that’s the new #1), once your done re-paste the 300 back on top of the list and call it a day. Solved.

It is not a straight doh. You start at 2007 since that is when you were created. You then do the 1 for 3 or what ever the ratio is. That is all you deserve. Sorry but that is life.

Can't wait to fly with you. You sound like an awesome guy!

No need to mention the age. VX has 2007 pilots who are in their 40s, 50s and 60s.

And how is "matching" those two guys going to realistically adversely affect the QOL of the AS guy when they are in different bases, on different fleets and the AS guy will probably retire in 5 years or so?

With that kind of hubris I suspect you are going to be devastated come September......

Did a Virgin pilot sleep with your wife or something? What is with the hostility?

Sorry, but that is only your opinion and the history of airline mergers indicates that your opinion is extremely unlikely to be shared by anyone in charge.

To the Virgin Atlantic (est. 1984) and Virgin Australia (est. 1999) guys, what would you say? It wouldn't have been unreasonable for someone to hope for a long and healthy career under the Virgin brand. Remind me to consult you for my next career decision, Joe, since you seem to have some clairvoyance about an industry that seems highly unpredictable.

You have some say in who represents you... so that's something. Something > nothing ;)

This seems overly callous. If Virgin was the first airline for all of its pilots, maybe you'd be right. But it ain't. Lots of them have slugged through the industry for many years and finally found a port that offered some semblance of stability, even if only for 11 years.

--

This has been my $0.02 from a outsider's perspective. How this ends up will be interesting though, especially with the Alaska/Hawaiian merger on the horizon :D

Not my fault they chose wrong, but they're getting 7 years of free seniority without earning it while my AS MEC represents them in their efforts.

My blue (which is supposed to be orange but they caved on that too like everything else) lanyard is in the trash.

Are those other two versions of Virgin as woefully unprofitable as Virgin America was? I doubt it. Apples and oranges.

That means you chose right? So You chose AS over Delta, AA, UA, SW, UPS and FedEx? Because you like being 5th best? AS was your first choice?

How old are you? There is no way to tell what airline is going to offer you the best career. Ask TWA, Pan Am, Braniff Pilots how their careers worked out. Are they idiots too?? Pre 9/11, FedEx and Southwest Airlines is where you went if you had a DUI. Post 9/11it’s the place everyone wants to be.

Grow up and don’t bring that “they chose wrong” non sense here. You are clearly upset AS bought VX and they have to merge the list now. Newsflash, VX Pilots aren’t exactly excited about all this either. But it is what it is, and make the best of it.

Every day I come to APC to read the Alaska threads it makes more and more sense, why you guys have such louse contracts. There is no unity. Too many bitter guys that want to take it out on each other rather than their management.

I am going to chuckle at you the day the list comes out. I know it's not nice to laugh at dumb people, but I won't be able to help myself. You are so dumb it is actually kind of funny.

Finally, the first thing I will like about Alaska Airlines... being senior to you specifically. Thanks for holding our place the last seven years at this terrible place that none of us want to have been forced into.

Tacoma, you deserve the bitterness that it takes to be you because you are a sad individual. I want to meet you so that I can laugh at you.

Unfortunately, that's not the way it works in the airline business. Do the guys going from AS to DL get their AS longevity?

You're the first guy to make any sense in this entire thread.

I already met you and was not impressed.

Well it looks like you chose wrong then to pal. You chose an airline not knowing it was going to merge and now you have to go through an SLI where you may end up junior to someone hired after you. “Not my fault”. Life’s not fair. Get over it.

Guys, guys (and gals)... Be nice...

Let's have a debate on the issue and not make it too personal, as hard as that may be at times for some...

It's All Bizniz! 😁