My numbers add up perfectly fine. I was on 8th year Captain pay $185/hr. 8 year CA pay at AS was $202 or so. I credited between 90 to as high as 110 hours per month. I flew a lot but ironically never had a premium trip. On pay alone I did $222,000. Add into that 2.5% in incentive pay ($5500) and $26,500 in profit sharing and my gross for the year was $244k. Add 12% for 401k and was at $273k. I wouldn't have seen this at Alaska at the time. Even figuring 10% soft time I would have been looking at around 1050 - 1100 hours credit for the year flying with some training pay, 7.5% incentive pay, and a gross around $238k plus 401k contribution. Or roughly $6000 less than what my VX gross was.


And as for hurrying to unionize because we saw the writing on the wall.....well that just shows me that you don't know us at all. We organized because that was the only way we'd have a say in our future.

I suggest the instead of fighting with your brothers you instead join us. None of us have a say in the SLI. It will be what it is. And that's it. Our battle starts in 2020. No more will we cave to management and give any future arbitrator any ammunition to use against us in the next JCBA.

Winter is coming...

Not in response to your post, but to the guy questioning your math. It never ceases to amaze me how stupid Alaskan pilots are. Your contract is garbage. We may not have had a contract but our work rules were vastly better than yours and our management actually abided by them. Hourly rates are just that, hourly rates. It’s the contract the pays the bills.. and yours is embarrassingly pathetic-courtesy of your “oh ho hum, this is the best we are gonna get so might as well vote yes” pilots who lack a spine or a pair of balls enough to say no I’m worth more than this.

Would gladly return this “windfall” I received and go back to our system without the most west coast airline.

So you concede you should be at least placed with a 8 year Captain? lol DOH it is!

Then you assume that an AS guy doesn't make any 'extras'? :confused: Do explain what AS lacked 'at that time' so us youngins can do the math. I'm assuming you are talking 2015 time frame (2007 plus 8 years)?

Numbers don't lie. How many days off per month were you averaging when you made $222k? Was your 401K a straight 12% contribution or a combination of Co. match? You said yourself that you worked a lot but what would a reserve pilot in your seniority make? How about someone who averaged 85 credit?

Jesus Christ! Isn’t everyone sick of regurgitating the same cud over and over on here? It’s just a seesaw of insults. “VX sucks, no AS sucks, no VX sucks, no AS sucks!” I think basically the same 3 paragraphs have been written repeatedly over the last year with slight variations in the names being called. Haven’t we all progressed through the 5 stages grief yet? It seems some among us are still stuck on stage one, denial. This thing is done and done. All that’s left is the printing of the ISL and painting the airplanes. Everyone on both sides, adapt or die for fux sakes. We’ll never amount to sh!t as one pilot group because we’re still comparing W2’s from 3 years ago instead of forming our attack plan for the future. B n B aren’t gonna pay big boy wages to a bunch of little kids yelling “come at me bro!” on the playground.

Seniority list rants never end, because people think that what they say will influence the result and also make them feel better.
It will, of course, do neither. :rolleyes:

Good point. Remember THIS is the management that was groomed under people like the Bhagwan. He once published a statement in the passenger magazine that Horizon pilots were nothing more than "juvenile delinquents in uniforms."

Assuming that the pay rate for a 8 yr CA at Alaska was $202/hr, here's what I come up with:
100 hrs. of pay per month on an average which is quite doable even with our crappy work rules comes out to $242,400. 13.5% straight 401K contribution is $32,724. PBP in 2015 was 10% which puts it at $24,249. This makes the total $299,373 which is greater than your $273k. If part of your 401k is company match (I remember reading somewhere it was 7.5% match), your figure would be even less. Ours was 13.5% straight up from the company. I just wanted to clear some things up.
Hey Knock squared, chill the f-out bro. You're going to stroke out behind the keyboard.

Yep getting worked up over things out of our control will only weaken the pilot group and possibly cause early medical outs. Neither is worth it.

Trust me guy, I’m far from stroking out. I’ve accepted this merger AND the fact there’s nothing I can do, in all my earthly powers, to change a thing about it. I don’t see the value in anonymous forum fights between pilot groups that are gonna be sharing a cockpit in the very near future. If comparing W2’s from 3 years ago completes you, then fine, I guess there is value in it. I think we’d all benefit from focusing on what our W2’s look like after 2020.

You've said it, there's nothing you can do so let's all just relax. I've been a lurker on this forum for a while and it doesn't take a genius to see this is just that, another public forum. There are many differing styles and personalities on here but if you can set your emotions aside and read between the lines, there are some useful information. Believe it or not, even the most sarcastic members point out something worthwhile. You nor I can change the infighting. Think about growing up with your siblings. When it really matters I'm confident we'll all work as one voice but I say let people vent and share their thoughts on this forum.

While 100/HR per month average might be doable I haven't seen it in the first 5 months this year and I'm a high time flier. Either way my post wasn't meant to be a d%#k measuring contest. It was simply refuting the assumption that VX benefited exponentially more with the merger and in doing so should take a hit with the SLI.

As I said, fighting amongst ourselves is a horrible waste of time. The SLI will be decided by the arbitrators and it will be what it will be.

Time to look to 2020 and focus on that...unless we have another JCBA before then.

I agree with you on the exchange of ideas and letting off steam but some have been venting the same putrid exhaust for well over a year now. The name calling and belittling from both sides holds no value. If we expect to be treated as professional adults by B n B, we’d better start acting the part. I’ve said it before, if this company make someone entirely unhappy they have three options. 1.) Elect new representation in the hopes they fight for better. 2.) Become the representative and fight to fix what you feel is broken. 3.) leave the company. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but that’s all they are, opinions formed through individual eyes. The facts remain regardless if we believe them or not. AS bought VX. VX no longer exists. The pilot groups will be merged. We will all feel the effects some way or another and no matter who made what 1,2,3 years ago, we’re all tied to the same scale now and will be from here on out. I advocate we funnel the animosity into action for a better future.

AMEN BROTHER!!! Best post of this thread. 2020 is coming soon... we need to stay focused downrange on the big threat... S. C. O. P. E. !!

2020 stay unified !!!

Okay then...if it's out of our hands....why are VX peeps acting like they aren't getting a HUGE deal (based on what has been presented) and acting like this is a 100% even merger and not the defacto acquisition like it is? I get it....we need to be solidified for the contract.....that will happen. But trying to stomach a pilot group who doesn't act humble at the end of the day doesn't bode well for integration. You can't tell me AS is going to get a "fair" deal out of this any way shape or form. Our Furloughed guys are getting double bent over and some have the gall to say being put next to a guy who was hired 10-18 years before them is fair....... absolutely ridiculous. The icing on the cake was when someone then says AS's proposal is shooting for the Moon??? I would hope such a ludicrous statement is Trolling, which I would respect, or it's a complete sense of selfish entitlement not based in reality which is kind of scary.

Really? Act humble? I think most, if not all of us here at VX want to work WITH our fellow pilots at AS and we look at each other as equals. It’s a long fall down from that high horse, bud.

SOME VX peeps, who happen to live in the right place, may be getting a good deal. Most are losing some things, and gaining some other things. Whether the balance is gain, loss, or wash depends on the individuals circumstances.

The commuters who live east of the divide are are going to suffer a severe QOL hit as their schedules become non-commutable.

The folks in NY who can't relocate are facing catastrophe. They did take a job at a west coast airline, so there was risk but AS is (probably) going make the risk a reality.

Few if any AS pilots will suffer severe impacts to their pre-merger situation, and more than a few will make out as they transition to an airplane that's nice to fly, or start enjoying efficient long legs on the 73. All got an early raise, and more options long term.

I have no dog in the fight, but that's how I see it.

Mil, I absolutely get that this acquisition/merger has huge implications on all of our QOL. Everything is changing and most of us fear change. However, you know as well as I, that there is a constructive way and a destructive way of dealing with our new reality. I agree that there are going to be pilots among us that are going to feel the effects of this whole thing more than others. This industry is a total role of the dice. Most of us have horror stories over the last decade +. This includes VX guys that have also gone through furloughs, mergers, acquisitions and companies folding. The thing is, none of this has been brought about by either pilot group. We’re just the pawns. We get sacrificed first to save the king, (Shareholders). This is AAG’s doing and it’s really not our job to enforce humility upon another pilot group. As I said, all of this is subjective and the opinions formed are those of each individual and no amount of berating, belittling, name calling or placing blame on either side will change those opinions or the outcome. As far as VX wanting to get the best deal possible regarding the ISL.....wouldn’t you want our guys to fight for the best outcome for us if AS was acquired by another company. If Delta bought us tomorrow, would you really say, “hey guys, since we got to come up to your pay scale, it’s o.k. to go ahead and staple us to the bottom of your list”? Of course not and neither would I. Regardless of where you, I or anyone else thinks all the pilots should fall on a list, the outcome is out of our hands and we’re going to be expected to show up to work the next day and carry on as usual. I really hope the two groups can move past this and work towards meaningful improvements in the next year and a half.

I think what Mil2Major is saying is there are VX pilots on here, albeit probably the minority given their entire pilot group, are mouthing off on how they are coequals to this acquisition. Many of them started the dick measuring contest and then turned the tables blaming Alaska pilots. Both sides will suffer in QOL but relatively speaking, the VX side has benefited far more than the Alaska pilots, especially effecting junior pilots such as myself. And let's not even get started with the our pilots who were furloughed. I get that both sides will be shooting for the moon with the SLI but given the situation, VX side is overreaching in my opinion. I can't for the life of me see any benefits for junior pilots on the Alaska side. I don't care to fly the bus or do transcons and my pay raise wasn't all that great especially compared to what VX pilots got. Shoulda woulda coulda but I should have gone somewhere else.
Here's a hypothetical question for the VX guys. How would you feel if VX purchased a 7 month old dying start up airline and demanded relative seniority?

How long have you been at AS? 1 year? Why don't you let the adult's discuss the issues at hand. Your lack of knowledge on the subject is embarrassing for the AS guys. Just stop and go back to your corner newbie. You're going to be slotted with the people after December 2016 anyway...

Mil2major is an airline newbie and it shows. He was hired post merger and wants to talk down about VX even though he doesn’t have a dog in the fight. Just raise the gear, shut up, and learn from the guys(both sides) who’ve been doing this for a while.

It's a 5th best horse Guy....welcome aboard! Yes Humble........It's easy to say....hard to do if some people can't see what's going on. Yes work WITH us as eqauls....but understand what has/will transpire. That's all. I've already heard of some interactions on the line which leaves something to be desired.

nice! glad people fight for their own. :rolleyes: Got any other buses you want to throw me under?

This right here! One Alaska guy makes a point and bam!!!........VX pilots gang up on him and give him a rash of turd instead of a civilized dialogue. Inferiority complex anyone?

You do beat an awfully big drum for someone barely of probation at your first airline.

What I see is a lot of talking down to the VX guys. Basically acting like they have no right to have any expectations and they should shut up and be happy with the their "winning lottery ticket."

I see that this thread has gotten nastier.:eek: Let’s not get your panties in a wad about who’s been here the longest. I fly with FOs who’ve been here longer than VX has been around. Oh wait, that’s most of us Alaskan boys ‘n girls. Swingline job or DOH and y’all still got a mega windfall.

I’m guilty I know. I’m having a little fun with y’all but kidding aside, I mean what I say. Look at it from an objective view. Can you honestly say that y’all are truly worse off at Alaskan vs VX, emotions aside? That’s all. I get it. The beat down gets old.

No I don't believe VX is worse off. I hope that in the long run the merger benefits us all. I just want to see mutual respect. We're all just pawns in this game and I wouldn't be surprised if there is another merger in our near future.

Yes, with the exception of pay. How much is quality of life worth? To me a lot more than pay, and we are taking a massive qol hit.

QOL is everything, the vx guys are taking a massive kick in the nuts. I’m surprised they aren’t more ****ed off than they already are.

I get it. You have a valid point.
From the start, TPA and eventually the JCBA, I was screaming from the top of my lungs that Section 25-Scheduling needed to be gutted. Once again, ALPO got suckered into just 4 sections and eventually got reamed in arbitration once again. No surprise there. These guys never learn. We really need to clean house. And NO, PBS is not the answer. PBS can be up for discussion only after Section 25 has been gutted and exponentially improved for the pilot group. 2020 is right around the corner. Fights on!

Who agreed to your section 25?

Not following you.
Section 25 wasn’t discussed during the JCBA. Section 25 was completely gutted in favor of management during the Kasher arbitration in ‘05. With exception of the -900 pay, this pilot group has been screwed in arbitration EVERY single time. Alaskan WDs chose to voluntarily take it up the anus in ‘08 (80%+) and ‘13 (60%+). You can 1. Blame the ignorant and selfish gizzards and 2. ALPO national & the MEC for shoving it down the throats of these ignorant and selfish gizzards who were dumb enough to fall for their sales pitch. Fortunately for this pilot group, we are slowly beginning to outnumber these WDs due to attrition.

Yes entirely worse. Once we go to line bidding and your horrible schedules everyone who commutes from 3+hours away is going to instantly lose all quality of life. No hourly pay can make up for the loss of ability to be home for 10 days at a time and stack trips. Looking forward to watching my kids grow up through pictures now thanks to Alaska. So again, yes much worse.

I can’t speak for the bus schedule except that it’s probably going to get worse for y’all. It’s tough to build efficient and commutable trips without transcons/long hauls. With bus slotted to do more west coat flying, that’ll throw even more fuel to the fire. Y’all may think I’m cold and sarcastic but my heart goes out to y’all commuters and especially to JFK based pilots. These are all growing pains and we’ll all feel it to certain extent though not as painful as the VX side. Btw, I still think y’all should have been Swinglined.:D

Did you read the sli transcripts? Your rep testified that the AS mec kept sec 25 out of the jcba to "protect" it. Good thing we're coming with brooms and votes. #windfallforyou

You’re all f’ing unbelievably childish.

From on outsider’s perspective....

This is a wash unless you are a commuter or JFK based at VA in which case it’s a total disaster. I’m not sure what Alaska guys are losing other than a couple seniority slots at worst. The VA acquisition at least means some mainline growth as opposed to the continued outsourcing of the majority of Alaska’s new flying to QX/OO. Seems like the Virgin guys are losing big time on QOL and potential base closures. Both groups gained pay rates/retirement from the arbitrated JCBA which wouldn’t have happened for either group if A) AS wouldn’t have acquired VA, and B) VA wouldn’t have been a desirable acquisition target. Alaska basically got a mid cycle pay raise and VA got a pay raise about 1-2 years earlier than they would have under the RLA. One thing is clear... nobody “won the lottery” here.

Just as I thought, this guy isn’t soo bad, you ruined it with your last sentence🙄... can’t leave it alone can you😉