That’s funny. Where I sit, a senior FO at VX, I’ll lose relative seniority and DOH, by at least a year. This is at minimum. Both sides have 6 year upgrades. It should stay that way. AS proposes that I lose almost 3 years of DOH, plus 10% relative. That puts 2015 hires ahead of 2012 VX hires. 2012 seems to be where the playing field evens out, albeit VX was adding capacity while the AS side was basically swapping jets.

I don't have a dog in this fight (not AS or VX), but I could swear you wrote a post when this was first announced that you'd be happy anywhere on the combined seniority list. And IIRC, that sentiment was echoed by several VX pilots.

Wrong person. I’m also pretty sure that no one from the Redwood side stated anything remotely to that. Nice try though.

A great argument for DoH.

DOH is the gold standard. That's what the other Virgin groups are getting to my understanding. Just my opinion. No disparities of almost 20 years like in that 15/85 proposal. If that becomes a reality it will be a USAirways/AWA disaster all over again. Hope the arbitrators realize this. I think they do.

Swingline is what you should be happy with but I’ll accept DOH to avoid a east vs west part 2 meltdown at Alaskansworld.

That only floats for the junior stack. Early 2012 and higher has to be a blend, as purposed by the VX committee. If you look at the ALPA merger policy and compare it to the 2 proposals, VX is the only one in the ballpark, albeit some of the junior side is still off. Just my opinion of course. On another topic, this will be a drop in the bucket from what the company will create when they open the doors to the bases.

Yup, be a real shame if the AS folks blocked the jcba, hey....wait a minute

Gold Standard? In what decade? When is the last SLI that used DOH? You are setting yourself up for disappointment on this one. There WILL be VX guys with later hire date that will be senior to you. I think there are a lot of AK guys that will be in for a rude awakening when they find out what is fair and equitable.

This!

Fact, AS did not save us. They did not buy a limping VX on the verge of bankruptcy. They had to fight to get us. We were attractive enough to other airlines(for whatever reason) who were more than willing to buy us. We would have been just fine without the AS acquisition.

Fact, on average VX's combined hourly rate, 401K, Scheduling and QOL provisions worked out to be better than AS's for pilots with equal longevity.

Fact, we were the cooler airline..... I kid, I kid..... Lol

So when some of our AS brothers come on to the forum with their superiority complex suggesting we won the lottery and should be grateful.... That thar is fight'n words y'all! Arghhh Lol

Hence as KnockKnock says, the circle goes round and round....

Some of us give and get some jabs without taking it seriously, but some of our brothers are having heart attacks, frothing at the mouth, and popping blood vessels and generally embarrassing themselves and their fraternities past and present.

Wouldn't be surprised if they've been a few sick calls as a result! Lol

So Freund et al in the AA integration were arguing for adoption of the Nicolau award for the E/W pilots. The same Nicolau award that is now, in the words of the VX attorney " now apparently the worst thing since
the -- the bubonic plague in terms of the disparities between longevity of pilots"

The AA panel rejected using the Nicolau award and instead joined the East and West pilots using a 15/85 hybrid, and right after that they joined this group with the AA crowd using, wait for it, 15/85 hybrid.

If the 15/85 hybrid gets used. Look out it won't be pretty. This is a different set of circumstances. You have to recognize longevity in this case to avoid labor discord. We shall see shortly.....

It actually isn’t as different as one may think. For those that think if the arbitration out come isn’t what they think is fair and want to usair/america West this. It has been made so that will never happen again with an ALPA ALPA merger. The quick and dirty of it is the Nicolau award was to go into effect after a jcba was negotiated. The Usair pilots voted out alpa and refused to agree on a jcba so no list activation. Now the jcba is done first, and sli next so once awarded it can not be blocked or changed. Changing an arbitration award is mostly impossible. We need to sit down have some beers realize what’s done is done and gather as one for 2020 to send a message so loud that B and B know their shenanigans won’t work in 2020. If we keep slinging mud and insults at each other they will have already won for 2020 now.

2020 If the Virgin group gains 20 years over night. Forget 2020. The pilot group will turn into a freak show. Hope it doesn't happen, but the potential is sure there.

Sorry if it's addressed in any of the preceding 26 pages, but who are the layers representing each group? Is Freund involved?

Yes Freund is the Alaska ALPA counsel. VX has Jeff Demain an accomplished attorney working on his first SLI arb.
Demain literally destroyed the ALK econ expert on cross exam. I think he maybe started to cry.

I guess I'm confused...did he cry? Or was he literally destroyed? Because then we will need to literally regroup.

Are there transcripts, or is this information word of mouth?

VX brought the big guns:

Jeffery DeMain
Education
B.A., Brandeis University, summa cum laude
M.A., University of California, Irvine, National Science Foundation Fellowship
J.D., Boalt Hall School of Law (Berkeley Law), Order of the Coif

Clerkship
Hon. James R. Browning, Chief Judge, United States Court of Appeals, Ninth Circuit

For thirty years, Jeff has represented international and local labor unions, trust funds, public interest organizations, public entities, and individuals in litigation in federal and state trial and appellate courts, administrative agencies, and arbitrations. While he has litigated in a wide variety of subject areas, his primary focus is in labor, employment, and constitutional law. In addition to litigation, Jeff regularly advises clients on legal matters, legislation, and regulatory compliance, and represents them in collective bargaining negotiations, and in government investigations, especially with regard to the National Labor Relations Act, the Labor Management Relations Act, and the Labor-Management Reporting and Disclosure Act. He also specializes in defending freedom of speech and the right to petition government under California’s anti-SLAPP law.

From 1992 through 1999, Jeff was a contributing editor of Construction Organizing – An Organizing and Contract Enforcement Guide, published by the George Meany Center for Labor Studies, Inc. From 1999 through 2002, he was a member of the Executive Committee of the Labor and Employment Section of the California State Bar. He is the author of “Recent Developments in Fair Share Fee Law,” California Public Employee Relations Journal No. 167 (August 2004).

He has been listed in “The Best Lawyers in America” since 2006, and in “Northern California Superlawyers” since 2009, for labor and employment l

Yes, there are transcripts. AS and VX pilots are all looking at this through thier blue or red hued glasses so I’d take a look yourself to draw your own conclusions on who “destroyed” who.

I doubt anyone destroyed the other. That’s kind of a bad thing to say if we end up getting hosed.


Alaska management is destroying this company. That’s the only destruction I see.

Yep. Tilden is openly worried that this merger was a mistake. If VX gets gifted 20 years longevity, He has no idea how big a mistake this was. Forget all about 2020 and some perceived contractual gains. This place will be engulfed in flames.

not saying you are wrong, in fact I believe anyone with a brain would agree this merger was a mistake, but where is the source for tilden thinking it was a mistake? Curious to read that for a laugh

Tilden may worry the merger is a mistake but not because of the Pilot SLI. Pilots tend to think way too highly of their position in the company.
If Mgmt allowed the Kasher award to become implemented then there’s proof that individual pilot moral is not in the top 50 concerns of the Mgmt.

"That's why we believe we're here and that's why we --we even had to go through the strain of this relationship for everything we've built and have, you know, unfortunately our pilots not happy with the company.· We're willing to jeopardize that because we believe we'd be jeopardizing the business model and that's why we're here today."

“unfortunately our pilots not happy with the company.· [B]We're willing to jeopardize that” This needs to be on a sticker and proudly displayed on every one of our bags. A daily reminder for all of us of who we work for and why we need to stick together.

Pretty much sums up our management to a T! Thanks Benny!

I find it interesting that people think longevity is of a common currency value. One year of longevity at one company does not equal the same value as another. If you get hired at a rapidly growing organization, or one with high turn over, your advancement in seniority would result in a high relative value to your longevity. If you get hired by a stagnant company that hasn't grown, fallen on rough economic times or has little to no turn over, the appraisal of your longevity would not hold as much value on a per year basis.

This is of course assuming you consider a year of service to be "worth" something.

I understand where pilots get attached to the DOH/Longevity thing because we live in a seniority based system. But your currency only trades equal if all things remain the same. You exchange rate would to vary significantly once you leave the borders of your localized seniority list.

Just a thought.

-4

True, but when relative and longevity are roughly equal then there’s no reason for one side to benefit over the other. Both proposals do not reflect that.

If you have 20 years in and after the SLI you are at a higher percentage in the combined group than you were before, have you been harmed?

For the record, win, lose or draw, I intend on buying a large sailboat and naming my tender "Little Benito".

I think that it illustrates that even within your own list the relative value carries different weight depending on your circumstances. In your case I agree. If longevity and position on list are relatively equal then they should try to remain that way. That sounds fair to me. The problems with that do get more difficult in different parts of the list. On the senior side you have excessive longevity vs high bidding power. Around the upgrade line you have a wide variety of longevities and upgrade time variance. And in the middle of the captain list you also have longevity vs. Bidding power discrepancies.

It's no wonder why these things always go to arbitration. It's very complicated and not only does everyone puts a different value on their years of service. The value can vary dramatically at different parts of the list.

I have a question on that point Joe. What has the number 1 captain at VX been gifted with what you say as 20 years of longevity? The best schedule? He already has that. The best vacation slots? He's got that too. And in this scenario he actually loses quite a bit if the bus goes away. And he is probably going to give quite a few days off back in the mean time. We are all on one contract, one pay rate. A rate that was achieved by the merger, not one that existed before. The contract really has no bearing on longevity or seniority anyway.

So I'd like to hear what you think he's gained from being inserted in the list at a worst case scenario were the VX position places him.

I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm just trying understand what the line of thinking is when guys say things like this.

-4

Currently, both sides junior CAs are summer 2012 hires. 2012 is where it starts to even out, in terms of upgrades and QOL. Senior to that is where it gets complicated all the way up to the number one slots on both sides. You are correct on why it always goes to arbitration. In the end, some will gain one way and others will gain the other way. Neither should totally lose it all and there are some on both sides that fall into this category.

Unfortunately they do not negotiate off the current status of the list. It's off the snapshot date list. There has been lots of upgrades on both sides since then. That will not mess with the results of the award. But it will create lots of implementation issues that may have unindented conciquences.

737 has 2014 hires in the left seat now. Airbus is stuck at 2012.

Because all of the 20+ year Alaska guys have crawled up the list for years. To lose ground to a 10 year guy who isn't even at top of scale is unacceptable. If the shoe was on the other foot you'd have the same concerns. It is, what it is. No relative argument will change this fact. We all know seniority is everything in this game. Now we'll see what the arbitrator thinks.

As a "lurker", I am curious as the the answer to a previous question; as "seniority is everything in this game...", if seniority is gained (not lost) as a result of the SLI, is there "harm"? Or is this a philosophical issue?

Have a good rest of the weekend.

S

Not quite sure what list you’re looking at.

That doesn’t answer the question about the supposed windfall for the top VA guys. They were bidding top 1% and won’t be after integration. Not saying 20 year AAG pilots deserve having people put above them, but if their relative seniority does not decrease they won’t lose ground, because their bidding power remains the same.
I don’t think any AAG loses relative seniority, or any VA pilot will gain relative seniority in the VA proposal, but I will happily be corrected by anyone who knows better.