Seniority Proposals
 

VX Merger Committee is high on something. They want their number one guy placed next to our November 1988 hires. That's laughable. I hope they stick with this position. Arbitrators have a rich history of crushing the unreasonable party...ie Nicolau Award.

And where would you place him?

What is the AK proposal?

DOH

Filler.

Ah yes, The Nicolau award. Weren't all those pilots (apart from the wide-body drivers) blended together based on pre-merger relative bidding positions? Would that really be unfair to the VX drivers? Sounds like AS is the one fighting for something more along the lines of DOH (a la USAir...).

But really, we shouldn't be ****ing in each others cheerios. Its out of our hands and theres nothing we can do apart from wait. So lets go to the Winchester Tides, have a nice cold pint, and wait for all of this to blow over.

I would say DOH is much more unreasonable than a relative seniority integration.

I would place him in a "fair and equitable" position.

In a nutshell, it gifts VX pilots up to 7 years of unearned longevity.

At an airline none of us applied to or a seniority list none of us asked to be on. Great gift, what’s my second option?

This is the way I read it. (Probably oversimplified. Many pages of yada-yada-yada) Your current position is factored by the following. Then you build the list.

AS proposal = 70% Longevity / 30% Status or relative seniority + 5 year Seat protection

VX proposal = 15% Longevity / 85% Status or relative seniority

resign....

Ok should we have a party for you?

Which is worth what exactly?

That is cute. Is this your first merger?

Maybe later

Going with the VX numbers might cause senior AS pilots to stroke out making it good for all the junior guys.

I did. :p

...

During discussions, one union rep actually suggested that they integrate VX seniority for the captains by measuring the circumference of their belly buttons. Now WTF would that accomplish? That’s how ridiculous some of the discussions were.

Why is that cute? That's nonsensical. What options do VX pilots have if they don't want to be on the seniority list? Quit. That's it. Kind of obvious actually...and no. Not my first merger.

That logic could be applied to you too. If it offends you so much that the number 1 pilot at VX gets placed ahead of (insert your personal offensive date) Alaska pilot, then maybe you should resign.

Virgin pilots didn't ask for this merger so there is no need to punish them. The fact that you work for Alaska means that you are incapable seeing this merger without a bias. That is why a third party decides these matters.

Let the Arbitrator decide... AS Pilots are used to less than standard results, so this one won’t surprise you when it’s announced😉

Guys... lighten up. Same team.

Did anyone "here" do anything bad to you by virtue of getting hired "here"? No.

Attitudes are contagious, make sure that you have one worth catching.

My position is that your number one guy should be placed in a fair and equitable manner. That's hardly biased. I did apply to Alaska, I did want to be on the seniority list. I got what I wanted. I was responding to a guy complaining that this merger happened and he wanted to know what his options were. Resign. That's your option. How did you think this VX thing was going to end? Either buy out of Chapter 7. That was is it. I seriously doubt any of you thought this was going to be a 30 year career under the VX brand.

And they think putting that pilot with a 1988 hire is fair and equitable. You don't. Again, that is why there is a third party.

A Virgin pilot thinking they were going to spend 30 years flying the VX brand is just as foolish as an Alaska pilot thinking they were going to spend their entire career without dealing with a merger.

Eskimojoe, like many pilots probably can’t stand the thought of being junior to a guy who has been at VX fewer years than he has been at AK EVEN IF his relative seniority is better post merger.

If you have the same QOL (schedule, days off, pay, vacation), why would be upset and think you got a raw deal?

Aye. Something tells me the history of consolidation is far from over, and Alaska is certainly not immune. Fellows its out of our hands.... lets try to step back and enjoy life...... and unite for the coming fight.

Let's see, 1960 Alaska pilots, 834 VX pilots. That's a ratio of about two point three-four to one.
So top three numbers go to the top three Alaska guys, then the senior VX guy, then the two next senior Alaska guys, then the next senior VX guy, then the next two senior Alaska guys, then the next senior VX guy, then the next three Alaska guys, then a VX guy, then two Alaske Guys, then a VX guy, then two Alaska guys, then a VX guy.

That's 14 Alaska guys and six VX guys. That's a ratio of about two point three four to one.

Now wash, rinse, and repeat, until the entire list is established. Just like shuffling cards...:D

What was so damn hard about that?

Your attitude towards VX's proposal (if it's true) is very telling.

Your own opinion of where the no. 1 pilot at VX should land, is just that. Your own opinion. Being on the VX side of the fence I would hope and pray that my SLI committee fights tooth and nail for relative seniority. If I was from the AS, I would hope the AS SLI committee would fight just as hard for DOH. Truth is its going to be some blend of the two. But to mock VX negotiators for trying to get the best deal for their pilot group is ridiculous. That is probably why an 85 year old legacy airline has a pilot group that believes they cant ask for an industry leading contract with the top wages and the best work rules. Instead they enjoy mediocre because it would be ridiculous for their NC to ask for Delta +5%

Get behind your union push them to be the best. I hope damn well when the SLI comes out that a VX pilot is #1. Just like you should probably wish all VX gets stapled. Dont worry about fair. Only the #1 guy on the new SLI will believe it was fair. The rest is whats negotiated or arbitrated. And when it comes out in November, it is what it is. No grudges, no complaining. And we work together for a kick ass Contract in 2020.

+++++++++1

This is going to be awesome. Let's worry about a smaller group getting merged in vs actually having any scope and Horizon/Skywest getting RJs out the ying yang. Popcorn is ready!

^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^

Here’s the deal. None of of us asked for this. None of us has any control over this. An arbitrator will determine SLI. Not you or me. So how about we all just chill out, have a beer and wait for the results. When they come out, this will be your new reality. AS pilots didn’t do this to you. VX Pilots didn’t do this to you. ALA5KA MANAGEMENT DID THIS TO YOU! Take it out on them! WE MUST WORK TOGETHER FOR CONTRACT 2020! Otherwise we are doomed.

This is why SLI arbitrations should be done "baseball style" whereas each side makes a proposal and the arbitrator is forced to pick the most reasonable/logical one.
It would force each group to recognize the value that the other side brings to the operation instead of each side demonizing each other.

It brings the arguments internal to each group on what they should propose, always keeping an eye on defensibility and reasonableness.

This system encourages much lingering animosity from both sides as they propose the most egregious proposals, and work justify them with emotion and lack of deference towards the other side which will soon be their copilots.

Maybe this is the attitude that brought Alaska their current contract of no conflict bidding protections and no scope.

Alaska overpaid for Virgin America by almost a billion dollars, to the point that Cush had to come out and say he had a "fiduciary duty." Virgin was not a failing airline and had become profitable when it was bought out. It was getting cash influxes over and over again by investors. It didn't need Alaska to buy it out, and it teetered on Chapter 7 in the past and always got daddy Richard's money.

In our specific circumstance, it seems like it shouldn't matter whether the SLI is weighted towards Relative Seniority or DOH because whether a 10 year VX guy is placed next to a 20 year AS guy on the Master List or, all the VX guys are placed near the bottom of that list, in practice because we are currently in different bases and fly different types, each pilot typically won't "lose out" to a guy from the "other side".

The philosophical argument should favor Relative Seniority over DOH however, because the more senior you are on your respective list, the higher the possibility (and your expectations) of you ending up retiring closer to the top of that (your original) seniority list. By placing virtually all of VX pilots close to the bottom of a combined list, that possibility of enjoying some level of a really high seniority at some point in your career would be seriously eroded.

If you go with Relative Seniority however(with some weighting for longevity of course), yes a 10 year guy at AS who was expecting to upgrade in 3 years might end up getting slotted beside a 6 year VX guy who was also expecting to upgrade in about the same time, but on this combined list, they both would probably now end up upgrading in that similar time frame...... in line with their original expectations

Consequently, both of them would still have a reasonably fair shot of ending up super senior at some point in their future career.

That in my opinion is more equitable.

(I will readily admit that I just pulled these numbers in the example out of my *ss, so if there are any statistically gifted pilots who can run the numbers for both scenarios and give us a breakdown, it might be interesting to see :)

In a perfect world there would be no mergers, and we would happily move up our own seniority list until one day we are at the top of the hill sitting pretty. But mergers are a reality and invariably some pilots will end up at a disadvantage relative to others after an SLI exercise. The trick is to complete one, so that the least amount of the pilots end up getting the shaft.

4 pages of nonsense. The seniority list is going to be what it is and none of us have a say. Just pipe down already

Sorry, but dumbest post today.
I am sure the pilots at:
Airtran
Nortwest
Piedmont
US Airways
America West
TWA
Continental
would like a word with you...

JetBlue has been around for 20 years, Spirit since 1980, Frontier since 1994, and they are still around, and kicking AAG ass in profits. Probably the only reason AAG is still around is because no one wanted to buy it.

+1K, where I am from all negotiations are mediated from the start, so proposals start from the center as opposed to the edge. Faster, more equitable, less hurt. Only problem, you have to find/trust fair mediators.

But this is an Internets forum and we are airline pilots.......:D.

DOH -1 year for VX guys....could have gone to VX 1.5 years before I waited it out for AS....so it's a GREAAAAT deal!! Plus all that pay!?! :eek:

Do yourselves a favor and don’t even bother reading the proposals. I didn’t and I feel great! The only ones benefiting from this thread are the pharmaceutical companies that produce high blood pressure medication. We have no more input on this than we did on the JCBA. Both sides representatives did exactly as they should have for their respective groups. Place the anger where it’s deserved, AAG. Remember, they’re the ones laughing at us as we argue about who’s jet is more aerodynamic....

THIS!!

Direct all the venom at Angle Lake. Contract 2020 is way more important than us getting ****ed at each other. We need to put this behind us and focus on the contract.