You are right about loosely using the word scab. I retract that statement.

Well put.

I am pretty confident there are some former “Freedom A listers” (scabs) on the Virgin seniority list who crossed the line for Jonathan Ornstein (Mesa CEO) to circumnavigate 70 seat scope flying CRJ 700s for Delta back in the early 2000s. I was a displaced into becoming a “Freedom B” pilot when the moved the ERJ145s on the Mesa Certificate over to the Freedom Cert in MCO in 2006.

But hey, we bought Virgin and APLA forgave those individuals when they brought ALPA in to give them acquisition protection.

You’re all F’ing stupid. Has either side convinced the other? Other than stoking the embers of resentment with all the flame bait (and I believe that has been the intent) you have accomplished NOTHING! This thread is useless. Actually it’s worse. It’s counter productive.

This dick measuring contest is so embarrassing.

I'm almost positive there are scabs at VX. On a different note, VX even hired at least one pilot who was terminated from Alaska. These are some of the undesirables I'm talking about, along with ocdp.

Nothing theoretical about a case filed in a public court. Or one that made the NYT or WAPO That’s about as real as it gets.

You seen either of the two pilots involved flying the line lately? What does that tell you?

Take this discussion back to Yikes. No need to hijack another thread. BTW, Paul passed the polygraph test. What does that tell you?

Read it on the other thread.

Agreed! I would encourage this as well, we all need to be informed as well as we can be.

Freedom A are not scabs, there was no struck work and no picket line to cross.

Alter-ego scum, sure, but lets be precise and not toss the "s" word around lightly.

"Pretty Confident"? You have access to all the lists, rather than smear an entire pilot group why not cross check and give us a definitive number? If for some reason you don't have the master scab or freedom A/gohjet lists, send me your email via pm.

Don't forget to check the AS list while you're at it.

I've heard on multiple occasions by a few AS pilots about this "windfall" that VX pilots have received. I'm still looking for the windfall check in my mail. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. But here are facts. Here are the actual numbers...

Pre Merger rates (2017)

6th year FO
AS- $128.68 VX- $112.00, Difference of 13%

TOS Captain
AS- $$216.45 VX- $180.00, Difference of 20%

AS pilots got a raise the same time as the VX pilots. AS pilots got their raise 3 years early because of the acquisition. Lets not make it sound like VX pilots got a raise and AS did not. We both did. Yes ours was bigger. Had we stayed separate airlines, VX was in contract negotiations. And while we will never know what our final rates would have been, I think its safe to say a 15-20% raise to match Alaska's would have been more than feasible albeit disappointing compared to what the rest of the industry was getting.

If we had been bought by the big 3, where their rates averaged to be $165 for a 6th year FO and $260 ToS Captain, and we just pigbacked on their contract, I definitely could see your point.

If you want to call it a windfall because we both got raises at the same time so that we can be 5th best at 10% below the big boys, have at it. I'll stop trying to bring reason into your life.

Gee, sounds like a win for both pilot groups. 2020 we will have to be unified because we deserve better.

However, without the acquisition, who would B&B have been comparing AS to... Allegiant?

Fact check
 

6 year FO: $128.68-$112.00=$16.68/$112=14.9%
TOS captain: $216.45-$180.00=$36.45/$180=20.25%

AS pilots contract was amenable April 1, 2018. Our "early" negotiations didn't really materialize since the company didn't negotiate. Getting a JCBA that was a partial contract in October of 2017 made our raise 6 months early. Coincidentally the same 6 months we would have started negotiations for a new contract. Hardly the 3 years you pulled from thin air. Any speculation on "what could have been" holds no value to the conversation.

Did your FO rates at Virgin only go to 6 years? If so, a 12 year FO scale is also a windfall.

VX raises post JCBA.

TOS Captain: $258.53-$180=$78.53/$180=43.6% raise..
6 year FO: $153.70-$112=$41.70/$112=37.2% raise.

Thanks for the correction. I was thinking 2020 because that is what we are fighting for next. There is a 12 year FO payscale, but upgrades were running about 6 years at its longest.

My argument was that AS pilots got a raise too and it didnt take much for VX to get to AS payrates. You may see it as a windfall, but I doubt there is a VX pilot running around thinking they just won the lotto, as some of you make it out to be.

Yep I got a raise. Yep I’ve lost 3-4 days off a month. I do not consider myself a lottery winner. That’s not a trade I would have chosen for myself.

Raise was nice looking at it from the surface.

Looking how many days off I'll average under ALK work rules, routes and new seniority is ~4-5 days off less per month. So 48-60 days off less per year. A pay raise is not worth that.

I try to stay out of these counterproductive arguments. But I do want to say one thing. I made more at Virgin at $185/hr than a same year Captain at AS making $202/hr. With the JCBA I got a decent hourly bump but lost a ton of soft time, incentive pay, and profit sharing.

******
If we can work to get a great contract, this place will be a good place to work but the pay bump we got has been easily offset by some really crappy work rules.

At VX we were already getting 12ish % on our 401K and better Scheduling and QOL provisions than y'all... and that was without a contract

Y'all got a huge windfall and jackpot, all rolled up in one! Branson and the BOD decided to sell VX because it couldn't turn a profit. The big three had zero interest in dancing with VX. Six or so airbuses with the rest leased and just a few gates in SFO, LAX, and JFK is less than ideal even for a start up airline. Thank your lucky stars that jetBlue wanted to dance with y'all which forced Alaskan to show up to the trailer park pool party. jetBlue couldn't hang so they had to leave the party and Alaskan got suckered into hooking up with the undesirable date. Had jetBlue not started a bidding war y'all would have been acquired by an investment company and gone the way of Aloha or best case, doing the limbo dance with Frontier. Let's not kid yourselves.

Y'all talk about getting a contract had VX stayed independent is beyond naive. jetBlue has been in negotiations for how long now? VX pilot group didn't even have a contract/baseline and being unprofitable as VX was, your pilot group would have been in negotiations for a very long time and eventually would have bled out. Do y'all think that you could have scored a 43%/37%+ pay raise on your own? How about a 15% 401K? Most definitely not. Just look at the likes of jetBlue or better yet Spirit, a profitable airline with a much superior business model than VX, who not too long ago settled on a contract. Could Alaskan have scored the current arbitrated pay raise on its own without too much effort? You betcha. Was it not the arbitrator who awarded the pay rates in the JCBA? If anything, the awarded pay rates were lower than what Alaskan could have gotten in arbitration had VX not been a part of the equation. The bottom line is, VX piggy backed on Alaskan and got a huge windfall.

When the SLI is finalized, the VX pilot group will once again get a huge windfall and Alaskan boys 'n girls will be left holding the bag. It's common knowledge that VX wasn't a career airline and Alaskan may not appear to be very attractive in its current form mainly due to less than desirable schedules and work rules but it offers a far better career than VX ever could.

Boy.... that was productive.....not.

THIS is why SLI negotiations should be done baseball style. He#^ ALG does contract negotiations via arbitration so you’d think they’d be open to a more civilized SLI process.

Our AS brothers should be grateful about the VX acquisition as without it, with the competitive onslaught they've been facing and with more to come, they themselves ran the risk of being acquired down the road.

AS management are not fools, they saw the signs and after analyzing everything, they decided that buying VX at all cost was the best option to take.

You are welcome.

Alaskan Airways has always been a lucrative small fish eyed by the big fish even before you and I were born. For 80+ years, it has survived to become a distant 5th largest fish. Red Anchovy Little was about to be beached by its clan and merciful Alaskan came along and swallowed it whole while blue tilapia went home with its caudal fin tucked away. Funny thing is now Anchovy Little is thumping its little chest acting tough and entitled. In any case, welcome to the family little fella!

Where do you come up with this unprofitable nonsense? Virgin was profitable from 2013 on, and made their investors a truck load of money BEFORE the sale. The BOD sold because they received offers from two airlines at a substantial premium over the going stock price. that is the only reason.

Take your trolling elsewhere.

That is funny! It looks like you didn't read the actual arbitration award. Specifically the part were the arbitrators point out that the awarded pay rate below our peers was due to the Alaska pilot group's history of accepting 80% of what our peers accept going back to the 90s. We only got these pay rates because of the merger. Without the jcba the pilot group would have folded like a cheap suit.

The actual figure was 92% of like equipment (727/MD-80) in exchange for the secret no strike letter. Because of that agreement, pay was never negotiated until the -900 came along.

Which cave did you just crawl out of? Wow, you make the rest of Virgin pilots look like a bunch of idiots! You shoot from the hip and speak out of your sphincter. Truck load of money....seriously? Are you referring to a Tonka tuck? "Virgin was unprofitable for much of its short history, just breaking even in 2013 and lagging at the bottom of the industry in profit margins in its final three years of existence". This is straight from the legal experts.
Your CEO and his board bailed on you....hand grips raise, triggers squeeze. I know it must hurt but get over it.

This thread reminds me of Itchy and Scratchy. They fight, they bite,: they bite and fight and bite, bite bite bite, fight fight fight, the Alaska and Virgin Shooooowww......you know you just read that to the music

C'mon man. Up your game and stop embarrassing yourself and your brothers. I am sure that there are AS pilots on this forum who can articulate their points for or against a position without sounding so juvenile and petty with the personal attacks and insults. You're taking this thing way to personal my friend. Lol

At the end of the day there's nothing you or I can do about the SLI in September and a bunch of other things for that matter.......

True. It’s more like Itchy is beating the crap out of Scratchy except Scratchy gets a hold of a bigger bat and Itchy is now screaming bloody murder.
Pot calling the kettle black. Funny how when you don’t have a legitimate argument, you are so quick to turn the table and criticize. It’s true....you nor I have any control over the SLI but what’s your excuse for returning to this public forum?

Still trying to figure out what either airlines profit or loss in prior years has anything to do with a SLI. Look at other SLI’s and you can take a pretty good guess how this one is going to turn out. Some AK guys will have to come to terms with Some VX guys being senior to them even though their is a disparity in longevity.

Bingo! You are correct!!! AS has survived for 80+ years by doing whatever was necessary to ensure its viability.

They were a big fish in a small pond for a long time....... until a few big whales decided to seriously make that pond their pond too.

AS's pond started drying up, and you do know what happens to a fish when the pond becomes dry, don't you?

Credit to AS's management, they saw the danger and did what they needed to do.

The VX acquisition gives them a fighting chance of ensuring that the pond will always be deep enough to swim in.

That is what VX boys and girls bring to the table my friend.....The very survival of your....... our... airline!

So yeah, we can thump our chest as much as anyone from the AS side because this "lottery" that some of y'all talk about goes both ways..

The VX aquisition gives them a chance to be bought by an even bigger fish, nothing more!
I pray for sooner rather than later, the incompetence at this place is staggering😳

Never left.. Perhaps your life revolves around this forum. Mine doesn't. Lol

Doesn't take much to be a keyboard warrior and be all nasty, petty and insulting my friend, but I as well as many others choose not to do that because let's face it, we do need to have a few adults in the room.

I got some time to kill so I'll entertain you, my little friend.
For the life of me, I can't really follow your logic since you too seem to speak out of your sphincter. If the big fish you are speaking of is Delta, then your comment above is a complete waste of key strokes. I won't waste my time explaining why because it should be trivial knowledge for you as well. If the big fish you are referring to is B6, then you lack complete logic. You see, AS didn't need VX to survive. The ideal scenario would have been for VX to just go away and die. VX was like that pest gopher in the movie, Caddyshack. The only reason why AS acquired VX at such an outrageous price was to out bid B6 to keep them out of the west coast. VX didn't bring anything to the table. It was rather put on the table to be rid of, like a sore thumb or a pest. Bringing something to the table means that you have something valuable to offer. What value is a unprofitable airline with very little to show in the way of assets? What AS needed was a midwest hub and not another failing west coast airline. Instead, AS was forced to put out this fire and paid dearly for it. To Branson and his board's credit, they out smarted AS and the rest of the industry. In conclusion, VX was a liability to AS and had to be dealt with at all cost. Bring to the table? Give me a break!

And I wonder why they wanted to keep JB out of the West Coast at all costs? Hmmmm

And Delta is not a threat to AS? Not to mention SW and United?

Go ahead, keep fooling yourself that Alaska isn't facing and isn't going to face even more serious competitive pressures. I can assure you that your....... our... management is not as shortsighted as you.

Your points underscore your lack of understanding of strategic business decision making and, your inability to draw sound inferences from a given collection of information.

If what you write allows you the peace of mind to justify having your false sense of superiority, then have at it my friend. Lol!

Wow dude, you just don't get it. I now see why VX hired folks with no degrees and pilots in general who can't be hired elsewhere.
It's really simple. VX needed to go away. It was a leach taking away from the market without even doing themselves any good. VX investors weren't happy with VX so they bailed. AS didn't need VX to grow on the west coast. So genius, do you see AS growing any of your original routes? VX was a liability for AS and B6 had to be stopped because B6 was going to use it as a buffer to the west. VX was to B6 what N. Korea is to China. If N. Korea went away tomorrow, they'll be doing the world a favor. You talk about strategic business decision and obviously you weren't very successful since you parked at VX.
I just call it like it is and if that comes across as a sense of superiority, it appears that you may have a bad case of inferiority complex. I find it comical that the worst sticks are the biggest jerks in the cockpit and the ignorant fools are the loudest of the bunch.

You are a child, and not worth engaging further. I will say you have no clue about financials. Yes, a large truck load as in Billion( over a billion) with a B, but you are some airline business savant so you must already know that.

Legal experts arguing a seniority list. Not a slanted view point at all( eye roll). The numbers are out there for anyone that knows where to look.

Alaska no longer requires a degree. Why don’t you talk down to half of the new guys too.

Alaska needed VX more than VX needed Alaska at the time, that is a fact. Our precious management let Delta take over the PNW and needed to buy someone, anyone, to prevent their demise. Look around, no one is threatened by AS because they know mgmt has no clue. Spirit, frontier, and even f-ing sun country is expanding in SEA. Traffic is up in Sonoma county but AS traffic is down there. We cancel a bunch of routes while B6 increases on the same routes. Now we are letting southwest whip our butts in the west.

I agree. Work4life is a child and is not worth engaging any further. Ignore the troll. Lol

Actually sad to say I think this movie can be used as an analogy for how this whole thing is going down on the forums at least. Really embarrassed by all this public laundry. Nobody is doing any credit to their respective groups.

http://https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CewglxElBK0