I know where you can fly an MD-80...ex-Alaska MD-80s at that!

Problem 1: Purchase of larger aircraft.
Once you get past the first few dozen pilots at VX, the average age of a new hire started to be lower than AS. Let’s just assume to prevent an argument that the average age of a new hire was the same at both companies throughout. All of the AS pilots on average are paired with pilots of about their same relative age, however because VX pilots get put in with pilots that were hired 15-20+ years before them it is as though they were hired by Alaska when they were 15-20 years old (15-20 before age 35 years of age which is my guess of a historic mean of new hires at AS). Over time, the top of the combined seniority list will start to stack with VX pilots. I’ll just take myself as an example, I was to retire AS at about number 30, now it’s looking at about 160ish depending on who wins the arbitration. The majority of those pilots being mostly VX guys and all of them hired at VX after I was hired at Alaska. Now if AS finally orders say 20 787’s, I would have been a shoe-in to get a slot without the merger, since the merger, I probably would not get a 787 slot.

Problem 2: The California plan doesn’t work out.

Let’s use the example of a mid-seniority Captain. Say 25% at Alaska that puts his seniority number pre-merger at 500/2000 (let’s pretend for math sake) if he maintains relative position then he is post-SLI at 700/2800 (25% again, let’s pretend for maths sake) . Now this California plan doesn’t work out in the next few years and we end up right back where we started as far as total number of pilots. Well now, the Alaska Captain is now 700/2000 which is back down to 35% which takes him from a middle seniority line holder pre integration to barely hanging on to a line. All 200 slots above him would be lost to pilots that were hired at VX 5+ years after he got hired at Alaska.

Can someone post each side’s proposals so we can better understand the positions?

Somebody can correct me but I believe as far as relative seniority it’s close to

Vx proposal VA guys lose ~4 percent
ALK proposal VA guys lose ~20-25 percent

Longevity is all over the place.

The average age difference between the groups by stratum is only 3 years. It’s in the briefs.

And a hypothetical 787 acquisition is irrelevant as it wasn’t expected and both sides could play that game.

I know it doesn't apply in this case, but DOH is the gold standard.

:p
And hypothetical business or economic losses that would cause a loss of 500 pilots and lead to furloughs are similarly ridiculous. One could as easily assume that the incorporation of the VX aircraft and personnel will be wildly successful and would actually LEAD to the acquisition of all those 787s that - absent this merger - would have never happened.

Or that,lacking any scope whatsoever, AAG will farm 90% of the business out to Horizon, with them flying MRJs and ERJs at regional wages while they furlough mainline pilots.

You can suppose damn near any scenario.

So was Sears and Roebuck. Relative seniority within category/class is now the Amazon.

So maybe we should start new hires with a relative seniority number based on there previous gig? We all started with a DOH number. Why shouldn't it be used to merge lists. The entitlement attitude has taken over. Heck why does VX have 2007 hires ahead of 2006 guys? You always get a weak answer. Good luck to all of us.

As nasty as this is going, I think you'd all be better off just saying ***k it and build the list by the last four of your socials.


:D

Hell, just do it by straight DOB. The youngest inherently have the most opportunity to acquire seniority. The older people will clock out first.

One's related to a merger, the other is related to getting hired on to a new company. Apples and oranges my friend, apples and oranges....


That matter was arbitrated by a 3-man Arbitration Panel and the reason for their decision spelled out in great detail by them. The ruling was made available on VX's ALPA's site. Not sure if it would now be made accessible on AS's but if it is, you should check it out...

This thread is a great argument for a National Seniority List. You get hired at your first Part 121 carrier, you get a National Seniority Number. Then mergers/acquisitions would be strictly DoH.

Sure, Part 135 and military guys are going to get hosed, but they're not Part 121 airline pilots so its a moot point.

Additionally, you get furloughed or you're airline fails, you should get a preferred interview based on your NSN.

If ALPA was a union rather than an association of independent MECs sharing common bylaws and a common tool box (ALPA national) your union number would prevail. No preferential interviews, you would just use your seniority number to pick up a contract at an ALPA carrier on equipment you are qualified on when there was an opening. Of course seat pay and work rules would be set nationally. This is how ship drivers do it. Take a six month contract as Captain hauling oil up the east coast with Chevron, take a few months off when it’s done if you want, then go to the union hall and grab your next contract with Shell or whoever. But the old timers opted (and / or were coerced) into not following this model back in the day—read Flying the Line for why—and it’s just a fantasy now.

Actually Part 135 or military could get doubly hosed. Do you really think a retired military pilot who gets hired at DL, UAL, FDX should have the same seniority as a kid with the bare minimum hours who gets hired at Cape Air the same day?

DOH is one of the least used factors in mergers over the last 30 years. When it has played a major roll in list construction it’s typically accompanied with long tall fences.

Maybe. Longshoremen and merchant Mariners don't give longevity credit to retired military who join their ranks.

Military culture is useful in airline aviation. Maybe give partial credit for the first ten years? After that you have to pick your poison... a 30 year O6 might be a more effective organizational leader and executive, but he doesn't bring three times the pilot skill or cultural value to the table compared to an O3.

All your repeated references to “Gold Standard” might be making exactly the opposite point I believe you’re trying to make. Any search of opinion on the matter considers it a discredited, antiquated, counterproductive system that is only endorsed by uneducated hacks. I guess politicians think it sounds impressive in a sound bite though.

http://http://mentalfloss.com/article/12715/why-did-us-abandon-gold-standard

I guess some of us might add that in addition to DOH being the “Gold Standard” we can add line bidding, step trading, ties and hats and the 737. We can hash all that out later but in the meantime I prefer to repeat a different mantra: “Let the arbs (and our pricey lawyers) do their jobs.”

Onward and upward!

He makes the choice to stay for his career. In addition he's getting a retirement check, medical benefits and insurance the young guy isn't.

Ya’ll missed my point. I don’t think anyone, I don’t care if they flew Air Force One or Trumps 757, deserves longevity credit for past experience. But I do think if that experience allows your first job to be at a major vs a small regional, you do not and should not have the same “seniority” as a young minimally qualified kid starting at the bottom of a regional. There is a reason that DOH is no longer the gold standard.......all DOHs are not equal. A national list, let alone a national list base on 121 DOH, will never happen.

Really did the VX guy just call the an "OG" a uneducated hack. Longevity/DOH is back in play. Read the transcripts. I'm also entitled to an opinion. DOH is the gold standard. We shall see what the arbitrators say.

I agree with that, it's a hypothetical discussion.

The “uneducated hack” refers the consensus of economists’ opinions on the use of the “gold standard” in financial matters, not anyone advocating for the use of DOH for SLI purposes. It specifically applies to Senator Ted Cruz who advocated for a return to the “Gold Standard” during the presidential debates. I just found the repeated use of the term itself ironic since, in it’s original meaning, it is widely discredited. Hardly trying to start a food fight over the SLI. As I said before, my only take on the SLI is that we all paid some pretty big assessments for legal representation and we should all switch our rallying cry to “Let the arbitrators do their jobs” My apologies if anyone thought I was calling them a hack.

Onward and upward

There’s no way you’re a pilot. You’re ego is nowhere near big enough!!!

Ok good, I'm just as was coined here, and I thought was funny a "OG". Line puke for well over 20+ years. The thought of moving backward is not pleasant. It is what it is. From my view point DOH is the way to go. What do I know, I'm just an OG! Good luck to all.

Do you even know what the difference is between a part 121 operator and part 135?


Sorry, that was a rhetorical question... I already know you don't because Cape Air isn't a part 121 carrier.

Yes I do know the difference. Do you? Most of Cape Air is Pt 135, but Cape Air operates under Pt 121 out of Guam flying ATRs. I specifically chose that example because they have both 135 and 121 ops.

I was under the impression it was already shut down, but in any case it is shutting down shortly. I do, however, apologize for the oversight.

No worries. Yeah I knew it was shutting down soon, but I think it’s still up and operating.

The arbitrators should look at what pilots can hold, and those pilots should be placed with pilots holding the same equipment. So Captains merged together and FO’s merged together.

Mea25000 told me that the arbitrator is going to dock 5% seniority from anyone using the term "OG". -- True story

Has anyone looked at the UAL/Continental merger... Two ALPA groups, so probably expect same cookie cutter merger results?

Same with DL/NWA

I think you misunderstood OG are getting a 5% bump in seniority plus an extra 5% added to the lump sum retirement payout! It's a win win for the OG's!

No. These two airlines are apples and oranges due to age. I would be #1 at VA but by choice am 50% FO at Alaska. I like how Kelly did it SWA.

Stick around, you may get to be on the receiving end of that yourself.

That was in response to the premise that it won’t matter to anyone as long as you maintain you relative position. Those are two situations where it will matter. While I agree there is some unfairness that the number-1 VX CA isn’t going to be number-1 anymore, it is also unfair that the VX proposal puts guys on the SLI in spots where they barely had their first pubic hair when the guys around them on the seniority list were hired at Alaska.

That last statement is BS. The average age of CAs I fly with would be in their 50s. Current guy I'm flying with flew for Eastern in the 80s. Also flown with plenty of ex-ATA, Aloha, Midwest, etc.

Just get over it. The list will be out in 4 months and none of us can change how it comes out or what the result will be.

Actually there are a handful of pilots here at VX who basically skipped a step or two and got hired super young who are now very senior. It’s not fair in a sense, but pilots don’t hire pilots, and it would be more unfair to punish everyone below them on the list. There will be individual winners and losers, there always are. .. I’m also curious why Moose thinks he could have been #1 at Virgin. Did he have 10,000 hours and a bunch of Airbus PIC time in 2006?