Originally Posted by captnate702

Me trying to encourage a strong organized labor group that won't wilt under pressure is now management? Nice ad hominem attack. Think about how strong the Spirit pilot group will be when the next open up negotiations? You think a single member in that entire group is not firmly committed to their Union and will not readily sacrifice for one another? I'm damn envious of Spirit pilots right now because there is no dissension within those ranks. The most junior pilots know that the most senior pilots sacrificed and stepped up to the plate for them and they will be forever grateful. That is a strong, united labor group that will withstand any of the garbage management tactics that will be tried against them when they open up negotiations. Talk of "brotherhood" and "unity" might be catchphrases to you, but those are ideals to live up to if you believe in strong organized labor - which I absolutely do.

And no, I'm definitely not looking to furlough out of senior - of course not. I'm just hoping that we get the option for furlough mitigation like our peers. I'd like to see some sort of voluntary ETO program with a 1:1 so every senior volunteer mitigates the furlough of a junior pilot (F9's current agreement); or where the Union and Company agree that all cost savings due to voluntary ETOs would directly offset the need to furlough (Spirit's agreement). If there was a furlough mitigation agreement with purely voluntary participation and it saved even ONE pilot from hitting the street that would absolutely be worth it imo.

Originally Posted by tom11011

In your view, should we abandon seniority to prevent furlough?

Originally Posted by tom11011

That offer was rejected by the company already.

Originally Posted by captnate702

That's total garbage. When mass furloughs are on the line during the biggest catastrophe in the history of our industry, the priority has to be protecting jobs. That is the most fundamental reason for having organized labor and paying dues. Protecting jobs must always get a free pass to the front of the line. If you get terminated, does your termination case have to go to the back of the line so the "prior outstanding issues needing addressed first" can get resolved? H#ll no. What we are talking about here is potentially 10-20% of our dues paying members being kicked to the street. Saving their jobs has to be the priority. I don't think you really meant what you wrote: that avoiding furloughs cannot be addressed until the other arbitrations (what was the recent one, VFN arbitration right) can be resolved. That's not word for word what you wrote, but that is what you are saying and that is garbage if you truly believe that. Comparing a VFN arbitration to protecting 100 jobs and keeping 100 members off the street then you don't the first thing about what strong organized labor groups are built on.

Having said that, I totally get the extreme skepticism by our pilot group with management, but its not like our plight has been that much worse than Spirit's. Spirit spent basically the same amount of time getting their contract and had to fight tooth and nail. Or, look at Frontier. Management got huge concessions during the recession and did avoid bankruptcy, but then it took Frontier years to get management to agree to a competitive contract. I think Spirit and Frontier got something done because both parties wanted to avoid furloughs and were willing to negotiate even though there were a litany of other things that they could not agree on. Spirit was able to avoid furloughs altogether. Frontier has yet to be seen (tho I'd be shocked if they got to the poiint where they avoid furloughs altogether). These are telling examples that should be scrutinized.

If I'm a Frontier CA and my line guarantee is 35hrs on leave compared to 50 at Spirit, am I gonna be super frustrated? Of course. But agreeing to voluntary furlough mitigation endeavors is better than nothing imo. I've said it before, I wish there was a 50hr leave option (even 45hrs would do) that I could bid for to help reduce our junior members from hitting the street. One CA on a reduced line like that can save a first or second year FO (of which we have a lot of) from getting furloughed.

Basically, their livelihood has to take priority over the CBA fights we are having (of which there are plenty and I am not minimizing them - HDMWD anyone???). But these junior pilots pay dues too and their jobs have to be the priority - even if it means compartmentalizing all of the scheduling violations the company routinely hits us with and hammering out a furlough mitigation agreement.

Originally Posted by captnate702

That's not my understanding. From what i've been told in the videos and fb, both sides are arguing about "no furlough clauses" when in imo they should be talking about furlough mitigation clauses.

From the video in Vegas, the union's offer was an ETO for a full no furlough clause - not furlough mitigation. The company offered STTO with a no furlough clause. Both of these offers look like they're shooting for a complete no furlough agreement and i just don't think that is realistic.

Originally Posted by captnate702

That's not my understanding. From what i've been told in the videos and fb, both sides are arguing about "no furlough clauses" when in imo they should be talking about furlough mitigation clauses.

From the video in Vegas, the union's offer was an ETO for a full no furlough clause - not furlough mitigation. The company offered STTO with a no furlough clause. Both of these offers look like they're shooting for a complete no furlough agreement and i just don't think that is realistic.

Originally Posted by rdneckpilot

Based on what was shared the company was asking for too much. No way I would expect the union to agree to what was offered. If they did I would probably quit anyway. Personally I would prefer to preserve the contract, maintain the sanctity of seniority and get furloughed. At least then the job is worth having when/if I get recalled.

Originally Posted by LoFly

I would take a voluntary 35 hours guarantee for 3 months to go on a long vacation. Heck, even 15!
They can offer it even after covid is long gone, during the slow months. IT'S VOLUNTARY, WHO CARES!!
Am I the only one finding hilarious seeing guys getting all worked up for a VOLUNTARY program?
​​Lol

Originally Posted by KC135

The rest of us care that prefer to take a similar offer to NK, ALK, WN, AA, DAL, UAL etc. (50-55 hours)