New Hire question
 

Hello everybody, new hire with a Dec 5th class date.
About an hour away from ABE. I know this may have been discussed earlier but I wanted to see what’s ABE looking like now.
Will I be able to get it out of training?
How long would I be on reserve if I get ABE?
How is the flying like on reserve and later on as a line holder?
Appreciate all your inputs & thanks in advance!

Reserve versus line holder honestly doesn't matter much for QOL especially in a small base not in FL. You may have a bit of a shorter leash but you'll prob work a whole lot less (which may be good being 1 hour away) and make just a little less, especially on 1st year pay. Time to line is unpredictable, depends how many people quit, if more aircraft make their way into the base, and if the senior FOs bid reserve. For November the #1 FO bid reserve. I'd be more concerned about the potential for involv TDY as the plug but I don't think it's too common out of ABE.

As far as time to get the base, zero spots in ABE were offered to the October 31st class. There is one ABE FO vacancy on the current vacancy whose results will be used for both the Nov 21 and Dec 5th class. I see that one spot possibly making its way to new hires, but very high chance that if it does, someone in the Nov 21 class or senior to you in the Dec 5th class gets it, in which case it will be about 2-4 months *minimum* post training for you to get your base. What if 4 people in the Nov 21 class want ABE? It's definitely playing Russian roulette...you could end up waiting 6 or 12 months. Thats how long some guys have been having to wait for IND, or TYS, or AUS, which all used to be junior bases. There are currently no training delays whatsoever, so with future vacancies running several months out you *will* commute if you don't instantly get your base, and it will be very rough especially since much of the commute time will be over spring break and summer when reserves often only get 10 days off. Run a hypothetical commute to BLI, which 3 pilots are faced with in the near future looking at the seniority list.

For reference, only 1 of 13 new hires in the last class got their base of choice (ATW) out the gate. I can't think of a time it's ever been that low. This statistic should be very concerning to anyone reading.

It's looking good, the base is doing well, it has been consistently junior, so you could definitely get it out of training, and get off reserve in a year or so. But it's only 12 people so if just by bad luck 5 new hires ahead of you wanted it, the wait could be much longer. That's how it is here with all the bases, but generally ABE has been consistently junior as opposed to like, Knoxville or Asheville.

You won't get called much on reserve there, and when you do it will likely be for an easy day trip.

Thank you so much for your inputs. Looks like I’ll have to wait it out for a while before I get assigned ABE. QUOTE=flydiamond;3529016]Reserve versus line holder honestly doesn't matter much for QOL especially in a small base not in FL. You may have a bit of a shorter leash but you'll prob work a whole lot less (which may be good being 1 hour away) and make just a little less, especially on 1st year pay. Time to line is unpredictable, depends how many people quit, if more aircraft make their way into the base, and if the senior FOs bid reserve. For November the #1 FO bid reserve. I'd be more concerned about the potential for involv TDY as the plug but I don't think it's too common out of ABE.

As far as time to get the base, zero spots in ABE were offered to the October 31st class. There is one ABE FO vacancy on the current vacancy whose results will be used for both the Nov 21 and Dec 5th class. I see that one spot possibly making its way to new hires, but very high chance that if it does, someone in the Nov 21 class or senior to you in the Dec 5th class gets it, in which case it will be about 2-4 months *minimum* post training for you to get your base. What if 4 people in the Nov 21 class want ABE? It's definitely playing Russian roulette...you could end up waiting 6 or 12 months. Thats how long some guys have been having to wait for IND, or TYS, or AUS, which all used to be junior bases. There are currently no training delays whatsoever, so with future vacancies running several months out you *will* commute if you don't instantly get your base, and it will be very rough especially since much of the commute time will be over spring break and summer when reserves often only get 10 days off. Run a hypothetical commute to BLI, which 3 pilots are faced with in the near future looking at the seniority list.

For reference, only 1 of 13 new hires in the last class got their base of choice (ATW) out the gate. I can't think of a time it's ever been that low. This statistic should be very concerning to anyone reading.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for the heads up. Appreciate it!
QUOTE=Squeakygreaser;3529020]It's looking good, the base is doing well, it has been consistently junior, so you could definitely get it out of training, and get off reserve in a year or so. But it's only 12 people so if just by bad luck 5 new hires ahead of you wanted it, the wait could be much longer. That's how it is here with all the bases, but generally ABE has been consistently junior as opposed to like, Knoxville or Asheville.

You won't get called much on reserve there, and when you do it will likely be for an easy day trip.[/QUOTE]

See you in class.

Are you doing the fingerprints at Clearwater on the 17th by any chance? It would be nice to connect before the class!
QUOTE=MilDriver;3529384]See you in class.[/QUOTE]

See y’all in class. I’m hoping for BNA.

Thanks a ton everybody for the headups . Appreciate all your information !

Is BNA attainable out of training? I have heard some people have gotten it out of training but others have been waiting months to get it who have been flying the line at other bases... So which is it? Thanks for any info and I'm excited to meet you all and get started!

Both. Being that there are only 23 FOs in BNA, if 4 of them decide that they want to leave or go to another base (or upgrade), you'll get in immediately. If everyone is happy there, then you're stuck for a while trying to get in.

Outside of ATW, FNT, or PVU, I wouldn't count on getting your base of choice immediately and instead having to wait somewhere else until you get in. I would say 6 months will get you the base of choice.

This is far too optimistic an assessment in my opinion and I am sure most would agree. There is even a new hire in the last class who wanted ATW but is going to need to commute to BLI for 2-3 months (training plus the line until April or May). They haven't been able to grow provo yet. As far as BNA, when you say "immediately," you mean at the effective date of the vacancy they open to backfill their spot, which is currently running 6 months out. So no they will not get in immediately, they will need to wait 6 months, less the 3 months spent in training. This doesn't even account for the list of FOs already on property waiting to get in.

This airline is a place where past results usually never guarantee future performance because the bases are tiny compared to other airlines, retirements are minimal and growth is mostly in the next new base. Looking at the standing bids, on the FO side 3 are bidding out of BNA and 2 are waiting to get in with BNA as their first choice so there is a chance but unlikely it will be right away.

Any idea on best guess to DSM?

DSM used to be a revolving door but it looks like most have set roots now, I only see 1 FO bidding out and 1 FO bidding in. No DSM vacancies on the current bid. It's really hard to predict but a rough guess would be 1-3 months to get the award then about a 4 month wait from the award to effective date (assuming the music doesn't stop). The vacancies left over for the Dec 5 class are looking unusual, 5 SFB, 6 FLL, 2 PIE, 2 LAS, 2 FNT, 2 SAV. That will change but just a ballpark.

the music stopped when we began only being able to hire about 15 per month (and decreasing) instead of 25-35. It will stay stopped until the new contract is completed whenever that is. Do the math, if we have 25 bases and only hire 15 a month, I wouldn’t count on anything. Dsm is not the revolving door it was a year ago. No reason it won’t be the new TYS where pilots have been waiting a year now.

January starts 20 guaranteed RATP new hires from the flight school pipeline program. Their flight school cost will be subsidized and details on their training contract should be announced next month. So that's 20 a month plus the 10-15 others that want to work for half regional pay. Just a rumor but I heard that an agreement with a second flight school is being negotiated so any negotiation leverage we thought we had is quickly going away. Paying for ratings and replacing attrition is much much cheaper than giving the whole pilot group a large raise. As I've been saying for a long time, expect no TA for years.

little bit of a bummer on DSM was really hoping for it out of training. I can make it work to get there though I suppose.

Since when can pilots go from zero to hero in 2 months? This is false. Management blowing smoke up analysts *ss. I don't doubt the program is coming but any crazy incentives for these students prior to a contract is going to blow up in management's face when existing pilots quit in droves.

The pilots in that program need to get their ratings, then turn around & instruct there for 1-2 years to reach 1500/1250? hours so we won’t see any of them for quite a while. Unless I completely misunderstand the way that program works.

It's my understanding that anyone at the school can accept the deal at any point before they have completed their R-ATP. This includes a CFI teaching at the college with 999 hours and no RATP, which they will have a large sum of their tuition debt wiped if they sign a training contract. The exact details to be announced soon. You only need 1000 TT civilian or 750 TT mil for the RATP with a bachelors or 1250 TT associates degree.

I think they are either vastly overstating or over estimating the significance of a flight school partnership like this. Private pilots are already interviewing at united, I don’t see the real attraction to allegiants program. At best it only kicks the can a few years down the road when the attrition from the people who’s commitment expires skyrockets. Who could possibly predict a bunch of 20 year olds, who have no family, and have never spent time on the road on overnights wouldn’t want to stick around for a discount priced career at allegiant :rolleyes:

Point taken; there are other partnership pathways that land you at a regional with total 1st year pay over $100k & you’re based in a real city from the get-go. Vs. Allegiant - make $50k & have to hopscotch around the small base structure as you wait to finally get to your domicile of choice. Where’s the incentive?

No reason you can’t get it right out of the gate. I’m thinking no matter which base you insert in that question the peanut gallerys answer will all sound the same.

It really is unpleasant flying with the new hires who were told they will get any base right away by the recruiters and now Jim. I can tell you haven’t flown with FO’s who are being threatened divorce bc they only make it home a few days per month.

I think there needs to be legislation passed to address this issue. For example in the insurance industry you would be thrown in jail for making statements and guarantees (based, upgrades ect) and locked up with Bernie Madoff for years. The pilot group at allegiant is amazing, pilots in my base were great. On the other hand the recruiters here should be thrown in jail. Divorces are just the tip of the iceberg. The people here care about their family life and recruiters took advantage of that. Some pilots passed on a legacy, lots of seniority lost, some not given a second chance after passing on a class. These people should be legally bound in their recruiting statements. Be honest…. Based on our model You will be a junior FO forever in your base. Or based on our model you will never upgrade in base unless you have 25 plus years left. Or based on our mode we will promise you DSM, and you will get it but what we left out is that will come 7 years after your divorce is finalized. Great union leadership at allegiant, and the new leaders in flight operations and training are amazing people. Im praying for all here that things are gonna get better. They either have to change the model so people can progress, or be honest with their recruitment

What did they do at their previous airline? If they've been at an airline previously, they should know the drill. If they haven't been at an airline before, they're either getting divorced because the SO can't hack this lifestyle or they're getting out of this career (at least the airline part of it. The local FBO might be hiring citation pilots for their 135).

Unless the company changed the interview in the last year, a decent part was asking how you would cope with not getting the base you wanted and getting exiled for a year to middle of nowhere base the company can't staff.

What did they do at their previous airline? They didn't have single days off and were based in a commutable city often having 5-10 flights a day home so they spent a lot of time home with there families often. When your days off are Tues, Wed, Sat or when you're in a 10 day off month, you often only have Tuesday and Saturday off if you're junior. You'll likely get off reserve late the night before and start early day 1. At other airlines there are a handful of bases with some having 100-400 per seat so there is always movement, not 24 bases with an average of 20 per seat with most bases having no growth. The drill here is nothing like other airlines because of the day trip business model, I've flown with guys that only made it home 1 full commute free day per month for the whole summer. They all say the same thing, which is they felt lied to about what to expect here. It's possible a lot has changed with recruiting in the last year. I'm really not trying to be negative, just keeping it real so I can fly with people who aren't miserable.

Yea they did.

Reasons you might not get DSM out of the gate:

1. Established base where pilots have settled.
2. No growth at present, meaning minimal movement, and barely any backfilling of slots.
3. Attrition and lack of new-hires has resulted in scaling back of flying in many bases, so when someone leaves they aren’t filling that vacancy.
4. Company needs to staff new bases e.g. PVU.

The company will put you where they need you, and until we can hire and retain enough pilots to constitute growth, bring on more aircraft etc. this is how things will be for the foreseeable future.

I don’t think they would have to have an ATP or RATP. They can get that with their type ride, this is how the regionals do it. What they will need is an ATP written test which requires a 25 hours sim and some other things before they can take the written.

much less than 25 hours. I believe it's about 10 hour sim and 30 hours classroom.

You are correct :)

I'm not sure if this is true (losing negotiating leverage). If we do not have a new contract, it would be better for those new pilots to break their training contract and repay the $100k. If you are trying to compare $50k first year followed by several years of under $120k, going to any of the Big 4 with a new contract or even taking a regional job with the bonuses would be more lucrative financially. Also, if we do not have a contract a year from now, we'll almost definitely have attrition higher than 30/month. Of course, that's if we even have enough pilots left to lose 30/month.

I think we have a large group of pilots hanging on by their fingernails hoping that Uncle M being involved with negotiations will get us a contract sooner rather than later. Based on what the union said about the last company "package" we aren't even close. If Uncle M decides he really doesn't want to provide industry standard pay and work rules and he says to hell with it, the NMB is coming. If that happens, the floodgates will open because all of those hoping a contract is coming soon will bail. I can't imagine that whatever program they come up with can overcome that kind of attrition.

^^^^
I agree…..if we don’t see significant progress very soon, IBT files for mediation & then you can forget about a new contract for ‘22 or ‘23; it’ll be months just waiting for a mediator to be assigned. In that case the fence-sitters will bail.

Reliable sources say they are very far apart based on last weeks meeting.

IMO MG is still not serious about a contract. He faking concern in the hopes that his new pipeline of newbies along with a ton of guys being furloughed from the majors will solve the shortage for G4.

Meanwhile he is enjoying the low stock price where he does a combined company buy back policy at the same time as privately buying as much as he can at these record low prices.

He is stringing us along folks, He is playing us. And we are falling for it. But that's ok cos we be home every night!

Nobody is going to get furloughed from the majors. Not even American. We are already in the recession and this isn't going to be a 2008 crash. None of the economic signs of that are present. And if a new black swan comes along that is so bad the majors have to furlough, G4 will be equally f'd and it will probably be the final nail in the coffin. Maury is an arrogant prick, but he's not stupid. I find it very hard to believe he actually thinks this is going to happen. What may happen is that legacy hiring slows and pilots who are stuck at the regionals turn to allegiant. But not unless a new contract comes. Until then allegiant will be every pilots last choice unless they live in Flint or have such low quals that nobody else will talk to them.

As for stringing everyone along, absolutely. His arrogance has always been his biggest handicap. It might do him in this time.

I am sure there are no furloughs on the horizon. But I do believe Maury is a prick and is basing his plans on it being so. He is also putting a lot of faith in the school because some ex flight attendant who he has promoted (probably - most of his support staff are made of this) has told him there will be 250 pilots per year available and desperate to work for him.

Look, I have said for more than 12 months both here and online that the only message from Vegas is "don't leave - better is just around the corner". Its so 'regional' and has been repeated ad nauseum. The sad part is when the union has signed agreements to work harder to get a new contract and released it to the pilots. All this does is stop the weak minded ones who want to go else where but actually believe the crap stay for a few more months and complete a few more flights. The union needs to put on their big boy pants and stop joining in the propaganda, and those who ***** online "give us more updates" should realizes that they are contributing to the problem.

A new contract will only come when MG wants it. Never before. And while the share price is so low (by design I think) he will buy up all he can. The most profitable airline with over 65 financial quarters without loosing money, loses money when every other airline makes money. And that's not intentional? Of course it is!

But yes MG is a fool thinking furloughs are coming or that flight school students will help him. Its just dumb

I think there would be jail time if it could be proven that Maury is intentionally tanking the stock so he can personally profit. Especially since he's still the chairman of the Board. You know SEC regs and stuff. But it is plausible that they decided to do nothing and let the stock price plummet due to market, economy, and industry forces in order to make the company more salable. I've mentioned this before and been called a conspiracy theorist.