For at least the past year TDY seems to be a way of life around here. The FL bases have been chronically short staffed and with all the training snafus it's been even worse. Plus last year LAX was a temporary TDY base for the summer and will be again this summer. And there's been mention of other seasonal TDY bases that they believe could be profitable. The TDYs for FL have typically come out of IWA and BLI although 17 pilots for March were TDYd from LAS to FL. There are some guys that have been TDYd away from base 8-10 of the last 12 months. Couple that with schedules that aren't very commutable, if at all, and have 11-12 days off that are spread out in 1 and 2 day blocks and it's pretty bad.

It has been the norm for about a year now. Before that it was sporadic. There may have been a month here and there when we got an Apple Vacation contract but some dumb accountant that thought an MD80 could make it fully loaded from Punta Cana to Boston took care of us ever bidding for Apple flying again.

Thanks for all of the information.

The days off is a tough one I'm sure.
A *normal* job, if there is such a thing, would have 10 days off for the upcoming month of March for instance . In this case I'm considering that normal job to be your standard 9-5 office type of job with weekends off. When people not familiar with the airline industry hear that pilots get 12-18 days off a month then there is little sympathy when they hear industry workers complain about time at work. Pilots will then point out the days robbed them due to commuting. Average people think 'but you get to live anywhere in the country you want and I had to move to Iowa for my job!'. And finally, pilots will complain about being away from home and not sleeping in their own beds which I have already shared my thoughts on this as it relates to pilots and travel.

Coming up on the last 4 years of finally being around people who are NOT gone for months and months at a time, I've come to realize that there are still many other jobs out there that require being gone and don't enjoy some of the benefits that I've outlined above.

Back to more of the point of my original question, if Allegiant USE to be an airline that had only 10% overnights and no TDY scheduling for instance, and this factor brought in recruits to the airline due to the schedule, to all of the sudden - over time like water coming to a slow boil - the scheduling changes to more and more overnights and months possible at TDY locations will certainly change the landscape at Allegiant.

Vegaspilot - you mentioned chronically short staffing in FL and training problems. Is this from many pilots leaving for greener pastures and Allegiant not being able to find employees - and is part of the problem the new scheduling practices that are becoming more the *new norm* and the word is getting out on forums such as APC and hurting recruiting?

This is a result of management's plan to run it exactly like it is being run-short staffed TDYing all over the country. Pilots told management they would need to hire for 117 and attrition, but nothing was done. The government shutdown has become the big excuse for everything, but this seems to be all part of the big plan to run like the doors are about to close any moment.

A couple of reasons for this. There has been a steady stream of attrition, mostly ex twa recalls, and a legacy hire. And g4 has steadily increased flying out of the florida bases. When we use to have management meetings (coffee corners and base meetings), the pilots constantly complained about the lack of staffing. PTOs are a joke, reserves are used almost every single day, leaving no actual reserves.

G4 management gaffed us off. What’s been stated before, the top of g4 are venture capitalist, who hate pilots. A lot of this mess is due mostly to their ego’s. You aren’t telling me what to do..

All new comers need to beware we will be hiring. If you look at where our fleet numbers are trending, its obvious we wont be net positive aircraft. It will be neutral, negative, or negligible. For example, the 75s are for sale. G4 took a good airplane and cheaped out on the mx, and turned the 75 into a looser. So, we will soon have displacements of those pilots to look forward to.

Attrition should increase, but it won’t make your life appreciably better anytime soon.

I can tell you Allegiant staffing is so bad they have to contract pilots to ferry airplanes to/from OKC and do C check acceptance flights for them. I've also heard that if an Allegiant plane breaks down somewhere they have to contract to get it back to base when its fixed.

That speaks volumes about staffing.

The Florida bases have been short staffed for several years. The company is basically to separate companies: East Coast and West Coast. West Coast used to be more important, especially Las Vegas. In the past, they always made sure there were plenty of pilots in Vegas, even at the expense of other bases. Nowadays, every base is short due to the endless TDY.

When the new DO and VP of Flight Ops came in a few years ago, things changed. Pretty much everything got worse. Was it their fault? That's hard to say, not being privy to the discussions that happen in HQ, but some (a lot?) of it is. Part of it also is that an accountant came up with the pilot staffing model. He had no aviation experience, and his model looked great on paper. It doesn't work so well in practice. The staffing model we use assumes everybody shows up every day, and things run perfectly. If there are any delays, sick calls, training, vacation, or other missed work days, the model doesn't account for this. Since we use almost all reserves every day (if there are even any available), this leads to lengthy delays and overnights, which is not accounted for in the model. The last time I ran our staffing numbers, we were crewed at about 2.2-2.3 crews per airplane.

Another part of the problem is the new 117 rules. Depending who you ask in our management, it's either a huge problem, or won't affect us at all. Couple that with a new scheduling system that was implemented in January with virtually no testing and training (no training for anyone, including crew schedulers), and it compounds the problem. There is some debate as to the new program even tracking flight and duty time limits correctly.

The training department was shut down last fall for several weeks, and the main MD-80 sim was grounded in Vegas for months. This lead to a huge back up in training, once they started hiring pilots again. There haven't been upgrades in a long time, but they can't afford to take people off line to upgrade because they can't get the newhires out of training. The company loves to blame the FAA, but 95% of the blame falls on the company. We plan for everything to go perfectly, and then have to contingency plan.

There have been some people leaving, mostly recalls back to AA and USAir, although there have also been people hired by other airlines also. As people get more and more frustrated with what's going on and how they are being treated, more and more people will begin to leave (at least I believe so).

If you get hired here now, plan on being based in Florida for a long time, with an uncommutable schedule. A lot of the junior West Coast people have been TDY'ed for 8-10 months a year, for the last couple years. It may get better, eventually. It all depends if they can get people out of training.

Have you actually worked long term for a airline? I can assure you that you will never spend 15 to 18 days a month away from you family month after month and year after year and have any kind of life. A typical 15 day schedule flying 80 to 85 hours has you away from home 320 to 350 hours a month and on duty 150 to 170 hours per month. There is a vast difference from that and 9 to 5 job where you are home every night, weekends and holidays off never missing a kids Bday or anniversary. Turns even those paying the minimum are in huge demand even if they require working many more days then a regular trip. There is nothing like being at home every night.
Companies often have road warriors they expect to be on the road half the month in the non airline world. The companies also realize that 3 years is about as long as you can ask a employee to do that before they burn out. A good company moves the employee into a home position before they flame out. Pilots do it for 30 years or more.

Thanks everyone who commented with their opinions on the way Allegiant is running the crew staffing and schedules. It is interesting to hear the ins and outs of this segment of the industry.

sailingfun -
No - I've never worked long term at an airline, in fact I've never worked at an airline. I spent a long time in a job that had me away for extended periods of time and then I moved to a job that had me on the road quite a lot as a contract pilot and now I find myself in a career job that still has me traveling to different degrees.
You seem to come out defensive with your post and telling me that an airline schedule is vastly different from some 9-5 schedule with weekends off and not missing any holidays and birthdays. Did I leave you with the impression somewhere is any of my posts that I thought they were similar? Maybe you didn't like the points that I made which are echoed when talking to people outside of the industry? You say in your post that "there is nothing like being home every night." I hope you aren't one of those who chose an airline career and now bemoan the lifestyle and time spent traveling. If that is truly how you feel and it is that important, why do you stay?

Not all companies treat their road warriors in the same manner as you describe. I know of a few who are on the road nearly 3 weeks out of every month - Monday through Friday - away from home, friends, and family and aren't compensated any better than a majority of regional airline pilots and certainly don't get the number of days off to make up the time.

So pilots at airlines don't have any other positions that they may move into for a break from the line? If not - I'll chalk that up as another positive for reasons I don't want to move to an airline job even if there were to be big movement in the industry. I like the having the opportunity to take a break from the line should I chose for any variety of reasons.

Good luck to the Allegiant employees. I had heard the rumors of recently messed up training programs and such but I didn't know the details of the sim issues that you brought to light in your posts and the increased use of the TDYs. I hope it all gets worked out for all.

Exactly. Allegiant is a travel company that looks to MAXIMIZE profits at all cost, regardless of the impact to those that generate the profit. Our aloof management doesn't realize the long term effect of what they are doing and image they portray with their actions. Attrition and no show's to new hire class, the few exceptions being those deemed un-hirable at other airlines.

Imagine for a moment what a new hire can expect if Allegiant's most uber senior pilots are only getting 11 days off per month. Even the crappiest regionals would NEVER do that. Throw in 10 days of reserve for some of those top 10% guys and you begin to feel the bitter slap of resentment. These are the peeps that shouldered the pain and risk of starting this company and were promised the moon by our CEO. Allegiant's nasty habit of closing the bases (LAX, DEN, GRR, IFP, RNO, UTA) that many of these pilots relocated to 'so they could be home every night', has forced these pilots to commute. Enter Merlot PBS, a tremendously unpopular scheme designed to put EVEN more money in management's pocket by 'streamlining' schedules and these guys are screwed. Our management disregarded our argument that PBS violated our work rules, and arrogantly rushed the implementation of this cheap software. Months of anger and frustration accompanied with management's 'sincere' apologies, insulting excuses and excruciating incompetence, and the company still insists it has the right and it's what's in our best interest. The pilots have since filed an injunction against Allegiant in court, it's up to the lawyers now.

Folks are leaving, looking for companies that value and respect their employees and do what's necessary to keep them. Our pilots have suffered the hits to pay and QOL ever since new management was hired and the bean counters were cut loose. Lining executives' pockets by screwing over employees is a short term agenda with severe implications in the long term. Hopefully the approaching cliff will bring in much needed change and new management.

VERY well said. It's full-on ATP protection mode.

Word! Totally!

I wish I could copy that and have it read aloud in each and every recurrent class. Well said.

The bottom line is...it doesn't matter. Allegiant is a classic stepping stone operation. For every opening there will be 500 Regional pilots chomping at the bit to move up to "big iron."

All they'll be looking for is that 757/A320/DC-9 type rating and enough hours to move on to a Mainline airline. As long as the Company keeps generating the kind of profits they do, the bean counters won't give a fig about your pay, benefits or quality of life.

YOU, via your contract, need to improve these things. Grieve EVERYTHING that violates your current contract and be ready and willing to strike for the changes you need in your next contract. In this century at least, pilots have been unwilling to do the latter and the results are:

http://www.alpa.org/portals/alpa/pre...-pay-chart.pdf

I don't think Allegiant pilots will be unwilling...quite the opposite. Even the people who were hesitant about voting in a union in the first place now seem to be chomping at the bit.

That's good. You know the old saying:

"Companies with Unions deserve them."

Very accurate. Here's another: Companies fail due to poor management.

We were a content group of non-union employees 4 years ago before new management rolled in and took everything from us. Suddenly we were making less while working more, with less support and less resources. Communication slowly went from one-sided propaganda using novel terms such as 'unsustainable', 'unscalable', legacy-creep', etc. to what is now virtually nonexistent.

Suddenly 3 unions magically appeared. Go figure

I look forward to two things now, since quality of life and good pay are no longer realistic. A better job, or imagining the look on MG and AL’s face when the NMB issues the results of the strike vote.

Prospective Allegiant pilots need to take heed of all that is being written here. It is 100% accurate.

For a second, think about your worst nightmare management team. If you had to pick management from some of the worst airlines in history with respect to employee relations, who would you select? A President who cut his teeth at an investment firm started by Frank Lorenzo? How about a VP of Ops and a DO from the "old" Northwest? Hey, for the hell of it, throw in a Director of Safety and countless crew schedulers from Mesa. Is your skin crawling yet?

As mentioned above, the inmates are running the asylum here. When the Director of FP&A (Financial Planning and Analysis) is put in charge of the new crew scheduling software, you know that it's all over for the pilots. We will NEVER get a new contract without giving these people a "time out". The past 15 years (and especially the last 5) have been a drunken orgy of dirt-cheap planes, employees being paid scraps, a stock price that defies the laws of economics, and an FAA POI who looked the other way on the whole operation. The party's over and it's time to pay the bar tab.

That said, you and I BOTH know you will have plenty of applicants, especially from retired military pilots who have no clue about how the airlines work.

The military is all about regimented training and order. How long do you think these guys will stay once they see how this place operates? I have no doubt that classes will be filled because newbies are of the "aw, it can't be THAT bad" attitude. The time it takes to go from that to "YGBSM" is getting shorter and shorter.

Well, when the majors are still not hiring in numbers everyone would like, wouldn't you agree that Allegiant is quite a bit better than any regional? Full disclosure, I had to delay my class for family issues and am waiting on a class.

I've had my resume on file at Allegiant since 2007 and have friends there who were trying to get me in.
Now they tell me to stay well away and are looking to get out themselves.
I don't expect to become a millionaire form flying at a Low Cost Carrier and I don't expect to get my home base right out of training, but there has to be light at the end of the tunnel.
Being happy and content, aka "quality of life" is my primary objective, but I'm just not seeing it at Allegiant right now. I'm not about to sign up for a life of misery.

Yes, and no. Some aspects of g4 are better. Some are the same, or worse. Pay will be better, and you could use g4 to go some place else. Short term, that’s about it. Long-term things may change.

Can you see yourself walking a picket a line? That will happen sooner rather than later. If you haven’t already, you should research the spirit strike. That’s where g4 is headed. So, you are former military? I’m guessing quality of life is high on your list? Right now the schedules, and bidding process is worse than any regional I was ever at.

Even if you are living in one of the florida bases, reserve at g4 is as bad as any regional. Even if we get an ok contract, given past performance of this management team, which has been horrific in its employee relations. Think Lorenzo. Compliance will certainly be the next fight.

Wise choice.

The time will come when our management recognizes what pilots bring to the table and alternatively the hornets nest they create when disrespected. Having only dealt with regionals (Westair) and new start-ups (ValuJet), Allegiant management has yet to deal with a committed, unified and militant pilot group, and it shows. It's actually downright comical, if not disturbing, to watch management's inept responses and knee-jerk reactions to the union's actions and newsletters. Reminds me of the over-confident boxer, still deliriously prancing around the ring with knees buckling, mouthpiece missing, too arrogant see the inevitable outcome.

Allegiant pilots have options and they know it. They have suffered the growing pains with the promise of rewards only to have them yanked under with the premise that "we are different" and industry standard wages "are not in our DNA". The consensus is to fix Allegiant with a fair contract or shut it down with a protracted strike and head to better pastures. Propaganda or ignorance, management believes the pilots won't strike and will accept a token raise without work rules. They believe standard industry forms of compensation represent 'soft costs' and refuse to pay them, our pilots will likely vote down any TA that doesn't have them. That's where the line will be drawn. Allegiant is among the most profitable carriers and can easily afford to pay the going rate to it's dwindling number of pilots, and they will. It's that simple.

Until then, I would stay away too. Good call.

All of the above went to college and left early to pursue their idea.

Sweet, so college drop out is the way to go then.

Awesome!

Guess that college education didn't give you any common sense.

Wat colige edumacation?

You just wear that graduation ring with pride. Maybe the local pawn shop will offer you $50 for it when you're struggling to pay your student loans.

No disrespect, and not sure how the college discussion made it's way on to this thread, but any chance we could move it to another thread?

Excellent. Spot on.

If you gave a good idea and are not going to rely on someone else for employment, then college is definitely a waste of time. If you want to be an airline pilot for a legacy carrier, it's pretty much required.

I feel like maybe a little perspective is needed. I'm no koolaide drinker or company cheerleder but at the same time we need to realize Allegiant management are no different or worse than pretty near every other airline management team in the industry. You might check out the "Delta Stock Buyback- Round 2" thread in this forum, or ask an America West pilot about Doug Parker. American, Spirit, United, etc. Same sad story. The differemce is those folks have contracts - otherwise I assure you they'd be pulling the same $h!t they're doing at Allegiant.

Allegiant pilots need to stay focused on the goal. And remember - it's just business; not personal.

You obviously didn't see MG and AL jump up and down and stomp their feet during past negotiations when we were trying to get captains out of the $60/hr range. If it was just business, they would recognize the long-term value of a happy, productive, and engaged workforce. Make no mistake. This is about ego and control, not just business. I realize some Delta pilots are upset about the stock buybacks because they would like to see compensation snap back to pre-Chapter 11 levels. However, Delta doesn't have crumbling infrastructure and looming safety concerns to deal with. We're watching good money fly out the door instead of addressing these concerns.

I agree. That is the only difference. But, this management team is more demeaning in their process than most. The ceo’s letter to the pilot group during our initial card drive, overtly swearing, threatening us in a public forum: “just another ffing airline.” What is that? Every prospective new hire should look up that love note from our benevolent leader. Imagine for a moment, that is how he views us in public. I wonder how more visceral the rhetoric gets in his inner circle.

This statement explains why we wallow in that, in between world. Not a regional. Not quite a career.

Good points, and you're absolutely right, we need to stay focused on the goal of securing a contract and rebuilding what was once actually called an airline (vs. travel company). Pilots have played a major role molding every great airline and we are in the process of doing the same in what appears to be an episode of 'Executives Gone Wild".

Pilots must try to keep the business perspective in mind, even while suffering the consequences of criminal neglect and greed while executives profit. Unable to commute home, operating poorly maintained equipment, often for 4 legs a day, multiple days in a row, week after week with 1-2 days off in between, with support and infrastructure resembling that of a bankrupt 3rd world airline.

Year after year our crews shoulder the burden and risk of this approach so that our management can brag about profit margins that defy logic. In response, our thankless management feeds us line after line about "rising tides lift all boats" only to be admonished "we are different" when the company's ship comes in. Ironically, our management's response to our concerns has ranged from utter disregard to outright resentment and anger, accusing pilots of using bogus safety data to secure a contract. Greedy pilots.

Yes, this IS business, but it's very bad business and as you've alluded, we need to fix it or we will all be looking for work elsewhere. To borrow one of management's favored terms, it's 'unsustainable'.

So now even more TDY's than ever (Airbus, 75 guys and the usual 80 guys) for April!

I think some people thought that management meant they were going to stop TDYing in April due to their email a few weeks back, but if you read it closely they said they were going to try to put an end to UNPLANNED TDY's. TDY isn't going away, they're just not going to be caught unaware like they were back in late 2013 when they said no TDY's and then had to call people up on the sly and inform them that there would actually be TDY's after all. In fact, now it seems like they will be planning on it all the time, so therefore that solves everything, right?

Is Allegiant currently hiring pilots
 

41 TDYs, which is roughly 10% of the pilot group. This is not likely to get better any time soon as they are SO far behind in staffing due to the training department shut down/sim shutdown/attrition. Oh, and of course the government shutdown..😒

This is G4 management. They do what they want. When they want. No contract, no consequences. That’s why they employ Ford&Harrison, g4’s shadow H.R. department. To help keep the good times rolling.