One of our contract provisions needs to have a tdy clause, such that :
1) 15 days off minimum

2) Symmetrical days off and on, to reflect something like this: 5 on 5 off, or 5 on 4 off. Never to have less than 4 days off in sequence. 3) Dead-Head to and from on days of work, not days off.

3) No one pilot junior assigned more than twice in a rolling 12
Months.

4) Premium override for pay. 3.00 hr perdiem.

Discuss.

Last sentence on number two should have a hard monetary penalty for working into our days off such as:

1) Working after mid-night into day off company will pay time and half of full days guarantee and recompense day off, selected by the pilot. Not the company.

Discuss..

If you want to discuss all the things our contract needs this will never end.

I certainly wasn't suggesting that *civilian* life should include some of the billeting arraignments that we in the service have endured, but even in my present company - if I was sent to the DFW area for a project for instance and was told that I would be sharing a condo with my own bed and bath I don't think I'd be complaining much. I'm sure there are other aspects of the living quarters that would need to answered - like the internet and TV that another poster questioned; but I'd probably have to shake my head if someone could handle the own bed/bath combo. Interesting point though about the other party having wife/kids/family/others over till all hours of the night. Guess you'd have to apply college level discretion, manners, and rules :) In the end - you could always complain up the chain or even call in fatigued if you had brought the problem to managements attention and nothing was done.

It's not appropriate for Part 121 ops in the 21 st Century. This isn't the 8th air Force.

Left to management's devices, it wouldn't be long before crews were sleeping in the airport terminal. No joke, they would if they could.

Seriously, the issue that needs to be recognized is Allegiant's agenda of lowering the bar -- for everything. Airline pilots represent a huge chunk of the budget so we always top management's list for 'cost shaving'. They are always touting themselves as 'different' and want us on board with this concept and to agree to more work for less pay. Standard work rules and pay are considered 'soft costs' and are heresy around here. Our pay scales might not lag too far behind our competitors but our W-2 s are absolutely pathetic. Now we have PBS rammed down our throats, complete with mixed lines, 11 days off (10 for reserves), and no say in our lives. But hey, the company is happy because they got rid of open time. Bottom line, they don't care, at all, about their people. They don't even try to hide that fact anymore. It's all about the buck and the shareholder.

They never have. The only change is the fact that more pilots are finally realizing it.

Just wait until we drop to Band 2 pay in May. They will have a full-fledged mutiny on their hands. The complete disdain and utter disregard for labor exhibited by AAY management is akin to something you would read about in Flying The Line, Vol 1.

It's 2014. Sharing accommodations with other grown men and women? That is so far BEYOND unacceptable that I don't know where to begin. These are human beings, not simply cost units. They have spouses and children. They have different sexual orientations. The world is too complex to treat adults like they're in band camp.

Ah, the band-system. I wish I could have told my dentist that I wasn’t having as profitable a year as I had hoped for. But, I didn’t get that chance after he recommended my crown. He quickly exited the room and his accountant told me what the price was. She didn’t seem too interested in my story of wow either. Never the less I paid.

How do you know it will go to band 2 in May?

How do you know that the company is making people share accommodations with different sexual orientations?

I know we need to make this place look as bad as we can to perspective applicants to enhance the position of the union, but lets try and keep it factual…...

Whether or not the company does, is irrelevant. The mere suggestion that our pay is tied to such a thing, is abhorrent. The next time your plumber hands you a bill, try telling him/her; “Ya, ya know am afraid we do things different here, I haven’t quite had the year I had hoped for”.

He probably has no idea what his or her potential roommate’s sexual orientation is. Nor should he. That’s the whole point. Were older/established adults with private lives. Shared accommodations at this point in life is inappropriate. Many of us were in the military in our 20s, and/ or teenagers in camp. We’ve been there, we’ve done that. Some people have families they need to have close to them, while were incessantly tdy’d, or who knows what they need. Throw in schedules that are absolutely un-commutable, and all you hear from the “Good Senator” is; “Sorry, deal with it”.

Now there may be some hyperbole here and there. But, for the most part the complaints are valid. If I were a potential new hire and I was doing my due diligence. I would think; “ Hmm, where there’s smoke…”

These are exactly the reasons why I could never figure out why people intelligent enough to be Part 121 airline pilots would ever accept this kind of pay plan.

Just goes to show you that pilots will do or accept ANYTHING to move up the airline pilot pyramid.

WestAir (dba United Express) did back in the late 80s. Guess where the management of Allegiant are all from?

I remember apartments in Santa Barbara and Crescent City, can't think where else. Had Yugos to get us from the airport to the apartment. Those were fun to drive :D


TP

This pay system was a hobson’s choice, dictated to the pilot group. Saying g4 pilots agreed to this garbage, is like saying the Hanoi Hilton residents agreed to make statements.

If you proclaim yourself as a gay male, do you get to share rooms with a hot female FA? That may take away from some of the band 2 pay cuts.....

The whole thing sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen

In California they passed a law that "gender identity" allows you to go to the opposite sex bathrooms now with no consequence. What has this world turned into? I would not put my kids thru that school system...

New Law Allows Transgender Students To Choose Bathrooms And Sports Teams : NPR

I'd say there's about an 85% chance of Band 2. How do I know? Because I can do math. The 1st quarter of 2013 is going to drop out of the equation and we will have to kick some serious tail in this quarter to make it. I don't see it happening, but I would love to be proven wrong.

Did you even read the email? It states that you will be placed with people of like job description (pilot with pilot, FA with FA) and like gender. It mentions nothing about sexual orientation and it shouldn't because it is none of the company's (or anyone else's) business. I don't know how many gay pilots we have and frankly, I don't care. Why? Because as adults our private lives are are nobody's business. But when you share living quarters with someone, it becomes your business whether you like it or not. This is a $2 billion company and they run it like a summer flying camp.

Not even going to make excuses. We screwed up. It was like signing a post-nup during the honeymoon. Profits were high and the idea of a pay drop was a distant thought. It was a 25% raise from what we had. But then they ended up funding a huge engine rehab program with operational funds that caused us all to take a pay hit. That's when I realized that we made a huge mistake. The company tried to give the FA's the same system and they told management to shove it. Everything we gained from that negotiation session was given back, and then some.

You’re being hard on yourself. You dealt from a position of weakness, and disrespect. In any negotiation, whether you’re buying a car, or a house. If you aren’t respected. Someone is probably taking advantage of you.

I believe the weakness is slowly being eradicated. The disrespect is still there, though. I believe once the weakness is gone, the respect will show up.

All that said, I feel bad for you guys. That pay system straight up sucks. You're relying on the guys who control the books not to "cook" them.

It may take a strike to correct it. No one should have to plan their financial future or present based on a Company profit margin. Its patently ridiculous.

Seriously?? You're either new or your head is in the sand. Everything on here is correct. You won't find another airline where this is acceptable. Why is it ok at Allegiant?? (Yes. I know. It's part of our "DNA") :rolleyes:

Can someone explain the "Band 2" in your pay scale?

"Band 1" is the lowest amount of pay per hour that they can give us. If the company posts a 6%-14% profit the pay moves to "Band 2" which is about $5 across the board raise. (I don't have the contract right in front of me so I may be a little off, but you get the point). If the company makes 14-20% we move to "Band 3", again about a $5 per hour raise. Finally, if the company makes above 20% then we move to "Band 4", again about another $5 pay raise. So the pilot pay is tied to how much money the company makes. The percentage profits is based on a look back over the last 4 quarters and whether we move pay bands is evaluated twice per year, May and November.

It was sold to the pilot group in this way. Band 1 is our pay rates, then each pay band above that was supposed to be our "profit sharing". That is the best explanation of "band pay" that I can give. Hope it helps.

I remember one year in recurrent when we had just barely kept Band 3 with a margin of 14.05%. While being asked about some other issues the pilots were enduring, A.L said, "you know, that Band 3 you just kept COULD have gone the other way." Didn't know how to interpret that. Lorenzo in the making....

That statement from our vp sums it up. Reminiscent of a ye old plantation owner telling his slave hands to like what I give you.

Thanks for the good explanation, flyingdutch. I've been around the block in this biz but I haven't heard of this system until now.

So, are things at Allegiant really as bad as the various posts the last few weeks seem to indicate?

According to our work rules the pay band method we've been using was only agreed upon thru 11/1/2013. So it'll be interesting to see how they approach on May 1.

Yes. The posts have been pretty much spot on. This group is ****ed off. The new PBS system helped solidify the group from top to bottom. No one is immune anymore. There are senior CAs that helped build this company, that a year ago wouldn't have left for anything. They are now getting their logbooks up to date and polishing their resumes. Guys that haven't sat a RSV shift in over 8 years are having RSV days plugged into their schedules to keep them at or near min days off. And that's just scratching the surface on one aspect. It's bad.

Everything is relative and it depends upon your situation. First of all, contract negotiations time is usually a low-morale time for any carrier, especially when they're going poorly (like ours). However, even in Allegiant's heyday, one could simply describe us as nothing more than a good paying regional (minus the work rules). Throughout the years, management has done a remarkable job of hiring most of its pilots from dejected regional carriers and other less-than-desirable operations. This created the illusion for said pilots that they were entering Shangri La, so they wouldn't complain. We do have a handful of TWA/AA furloughees, but they came here at a time when nobody else was hiring. Plus, several have gone back. For the most part, people were happy due to the "home every night" culture and the pay that was higher than their past regionals. We also were receiving steady pay increases (although we were still light years behind other airlines flying comparable equipment).

Fast forward to today. TDY's have become part of the business model, ripping people from their families for 7-8 months at a time. Negotiations are at a standstill, and the only protections we have are the FARs. Pilots who came from Mesa are now longing for the good 'ol days over there.

So, are things really that bad? The answer is: it depends on what you view as "bad". Some guy flying night freight in an EMB 110 might think all of this is great. However, if you tell a legacy pilot about our working conditions be prepared for them to make a face like they're watching one of those Sarah McClachlan abused puppy commercials. I have a lot of friends at SWA who complain about things, but they're complaining that the elevator doesn't move up to the penthouse fast enough while I'm jiggling the key to my broom closet in the basement.

Can you elaborate on the where/who of the TDY issue? Primarily from West to East or vice versa, junior vs. random?

I appreciate the honest replies. CLMP summed it up well...perspective sure has a funny way of tilting opinions one way or another. Five years in/out of furloughs/recalls has had its effects!

CLMP summed it up very well.

So far the TDY has been West to East. Pilots from the west coast are being sent to PGD and PIE (with 1-2 to SFB on occasion) monthly. They normally allow the bases affected to bid it, but usually very few want to go so it becomes a constant JA. The month of March saw over 40 total pilots sent east. More than 10% of the group on TDY. The IWA base has born the brunt of it. A few of the the pilots in IWA have been on TDY upwards of 8-10 months in the past 12. BLI and LAS to a lesser extent have seen pilots shipped east as well. Apparently a new norm is seasonal base openings. This summer Myrtle Beach and LAX will be opened from around May 1 till the first week of Sept. LAX will be once again staffed by IWA and maybe LAS from what hearing and MYR will be all bases allowed to volunteer and then JA to the FL bases if not enough elect to do it. So FL will get tagged with this one as well. The 757 guys have also experienced LAS to HNL TDY and vice versa. This month 1 757 crew is TDYd to BLI. So it's been all over the place.

Any news on the training front? Have they finished that last class yet?

I believe they are in IOE now.

If they want to make TDY's part of the business model, fine. But they need to stop lying to us by telling us that the TDY's will be going away. If people know about these TDY's before accepting a job here or taking that upgrade, they can make a more informed decision about what's best for their families. It makes no sense to move to IWA (thinking you'll actually be flying out of there) only to be sitting in a hotel for the next 8 months in PIE.

The TDY's also need to be compensated. They are asking us to be "flexible" (another dirty "F word" you will get to know well) but they don't want to pay for it. The company is basically getting this MYR base for free this summer. Do you think they would pass some of those savings on to the pilots and FA's who will be there with 10 days off? Nope. Do you think any thought was given to the pilots TDY to HNL last summer who were paid $1/hr to live in Waikiki? Do they have any clue how much it costs to eat in Hawaii? They know. They just don't care. Any pilot whose compensation and QOL is obliterated during the company's relentless pursuit of profit is simply collateral damage to be ignored.

When it comes to TDY's in locations that already have a crew domicile, is that because there aren't enough pilots to staff the flights? Is there additional flying that calls for more pilots than normal? Is it seasonal? Temporary?

Normally TDYs are to cover seasonal flying, but the FL TDY's have all been due to understaffing, the cause of which will vary depending on who you ask.

The cause of which is this company’s general propensity for understaffing, and especially Florida. Tdy’s are the new normal to stopgap seasonal flying increase’s. G4 is running hog wild, cheating out the pilots. They do it, because they can.

The tdy’s tend to go very junior ever time. Tdy’s are great if your 25 years old, un-married, have no girl/boy friend, no children, and/or divorced with no children, because you will never see them. Basically if you were live in an utter vacuum, there awesome.