Sam York

450 you have point, but like the guy above said don't burn a bridge. I interviewed and was hired with AirTran before 911. I turned them down. When the **** hit the fan post 911 I couldn't get sqat from
them. Even with 3 capts walking my stuff in.

seafeye

You got hired at at Major Airline at age 35.
You WILL retire a wide body captain. You will most likely spent 15 years as an F/O and 15 as a Captain. Pretty good career IMO.
I'd stop looking over the fence.

cactusmike

AA has never been the airline that it thinks it is. Crandall was great at financials, Parker is a product of he Crandall system. It seems over the last 30 years that AA was always the airline last to react to market changes. They were not the leader except in B scale wages.

There are huge systematic flaws here that can be fixed but it will take money and leadership. DECS and the Sabre system are dinosaurs and will take billions to upgrade. Everything you do is run through a 1960s computer system. My paycheck today was so screwed up it was unreal. Trying to piece together information on my February schedule online was impossible. Luckily I have been creating paper trails of my sequences so I have some history. Other guys I speak to have had big pay issues as well. Things like this are symbolic of how an entrenched mindset and lack of nimbleness can disrupt your life.

As far as contracts go we are way behind. It's going to take a wholesale takeover by the junior pilots flying domestic to make some much needed lifestyle changes. It can be done but it's going to take a lot of effort. And this contract needs the work, it's below many regionals in everything except pay.

Having a seniority number means the world. You give up that number and many things can happen and most of them are not good. This business is definitely cyclical and a crapshoot. You'll know when you retire if you made the right choice. You won't really know before then because things can change in a heartbeat. You are better served staying put and working to make changes through the union. Volunteer, send p2 reports, be active in pushing forward.

beancounter

I think just the fact that you have pilots with 10+ years considering leaving unfortunately says a lot about the current state of our airline/culture. Some of it could be just blowing off steam on the internet, but I've talked to some in person that seem to be serious about going elsewhere. Unfortunately not all of them are senior to me

450knotOffice

Consider that the ten plus year FO's have become jaded by being stuck in the right seat for SO long. Can't blame them, honestly. It wears them down.

With that said, this era is not the same. Upward movement is happening. Those ten year guys are starting to see upgrades. The more junior guys will spend MUCH less time in the right seat, which makes for happier pilots overall.

aa73

This place has nowhere to go but up, and it will. Every airline has had its turn at the bottom. Some great and insightful posts on this thread, but the overall consensus is - stay put. Every airline, yes even Delta, has its share of Debbie Downers that talk about "leaving this dump." Nobody ever does - well, maybe a couple out of 15,000, and that only when there are some dang good and personal reasons to do so. Like what was said above, seniority is EVERYTHING, and to leave just because things are better elsewhere is pretty foolish...this industry is cyclical.

American is a lot of things good and not so good, but in the end this is still a legacy career job and a dang good one at that. We're just doing our tour of duty at the bottom that every other airline pilot has done. Hang in there and get involved to help expedite the necessary changes...and good changes will come...be patient.

Perspective... I spent two years as the rock bottom plug "native" AA pilot commuting from DFW to NYC bottom MD80 reserve - number last out of 10,000 pilots. Missed the entire 9/11 furlough (2900 pilots) by ONE NUMBER. believe me, I've had many, many days where I seriously considered jumping ship. So glad I never did, and in the end I was blessed to remain on the property while thousands of my fellow pilots got laid off - I should have been one of them. That was the 2005-2007 time frame. Today, 10 years later I am upgrading to CA...it took 17 years total from new hire (I was a 2/00 hire) - and in the next 20 years I gain 9000 seniority #s. It's gonna go that fast.

Stay put, get involved, and Make American Great Again

AFTrainerGuy

I'm a spring of 14 hire, theoretically retire in top 300. And to be honest, I think about it weekly. Went as far as just put in a app a few weeks ago to FedEx. I wouldn't leave for any other legacy though they've hired too many by now and I wouldn't be anywhere near same number as I will at AA.

But, putting my toe in the water and actually jumping in (if I even get an interview as another poster pointed out) are 2 different things.

My confidence that things will get better dwindles everyday but sometimes I already feel like I'm past V1 with AA. I think you ask a valid question and honestly I think about it too.

mainlineAF

Fedex has hired a while lot of guys in the last couple years as well. I was in the same boat for awhile. I was super bitter and wanted to gtfo. But I don't live in any other airlines domicile and I have a ton of people junior to me. This career is about numbers and you will be giving up a LOT to jump ship.

I ran numbers 5 years out for a jump to UPS. Used 150/hr at AA for every year and the published UPS pay scale. AA came out ahead slightly. Over the next 35 years things will change but the numbers will probably be quite similar for the 2 jobs.

Mover

I did the same calculations with FedEx using a 1 for 1 with each pay scale, and assuming a CA upgrade at AA at the 7 year point. FedEx was ahead by over $150k at the 10 year mark.

mainlineAF

My projections started on AA 5th year pay bc thats where I am and UPS year 1. So mine are different than yours. But the numbers are a crap shoot really. Another factor to consider is AA will get a new contract sometime around 2020 with narrowbody captain rates near the 300 mark. Obviously Fedex will get a new contract eventually as well so its hard to project accurately. And over the course of ones career as it stands now FDX/UPS will undoubtedly make more. Enough to give up a lot of seniority? For me, no.

Even if AA is 150k less over 10 years thats only 15k/yr. After taxes thats 800/mo. Thats not insignificant but its not mind-blowing.

If you've been at AA under a year it makes sense to jump. You start getting over a year and it gets a whole lot more questionable.