Spread the Money Around AA/WO
10-18-2017 | 03:59 PM
#31
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Joined: Feb 2008
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Your answer probably lies in the rest of the resume. It also lies in the fact major airlines all have a feedback loop from hiring through training. They know what applicants do the best in their programs and attempt to recruit additional pilots based on that feedback. It goes as in depth a specific regional airlines that seem to produce pilots with below average results. Other regionals can be held in much higher esteem based on their pilots performance. Think SkyWest verses Silver airways aka Gulfstream air.
Just a add to your CRM comments. If the opportunity ever comes up sit in on a brief and debrief for a tactical military sortie. It might be eye opening for you.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]
Just a add to your CRM comments. If the opportunity ever comes up sit in on a brief and debrief for a tactical military sortie. It might be eye opening for you.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]
10-18-2017 | 04:00 PM
#32
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Joined: May 2008
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IMHO, the airlines find value in the whole package that they get with mil folks. Anyone can fly an airplane. Especially with today's automation. I think the airlines like the fact that most mil folks have a diverse background outside of the cockpit. We're not just pilots. We're Flight Commanders, Weapons & Tactics Officers, Safety Officers, Director of Operations, Mobility Officers, Training Officers, Executive Officers, etc. Does that mean that we're better pilots? Not necessarily. However, a Mission Commander that has led a 60-ship package to strike high value targets or to rescue downed aircrew or defend a high value asset, has proven that he can manage and lead under extreme stress.
That doesn't necessarily mean that he/she can fly a better ILS or even deal with an unruly passenger while safeguarding the image of the company any better than you. It's just another discriminator and gives the airline a better picture of who they're hiring. Just like the college degree, the airlines have found value in military folks. They've been hiring them for many decades.
Just my $.02 as a prior CFII, corporate pilot, prior single-seat mil, and current mil crew dawg and 121 guy. Take it for what it's worth.
That doesn't necessarily mean that he/she can fly a better ILS or even deal with an unruly passenger while safeguarding the image of the company any better than you. It's just another discriminator and gives the airline a better picture of who they're hiring. Just like the college degree, the airlines have found value in military folks. They've been hiring them for many decades.
Just my $.02 as a prior CFII, corporate pilot, prior single-seat mil, and current mil crew dawg and 121 guy. Take it for what it's worth.
Last edited by Rawhide16; 10-18-2017 at 04:13 PM.
10-18-2017 | 04:00 PM
#33
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I predominantly have a 135 background.
I knew I would get lashed out at for that statement... my point was not to bash mil guys or fighter pilots. Why does a mil guy get preference then a civilian who has more experience in a sense of flying?
For example:
Single seat fighter will get hired on at a mainline carrier with 1500 total time.. (yes I know a majority of his time is all turbine PiC)
Civilian 5000 hours 3000 jet pic multiple crossings and world wide experience. Radio Silent.
The Mil guy is more attractive on paper then the civilian. Why?
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I knew I would get lashed out at for that statement... my point was not to bash mil guys or fighter pilots. Why does a mil guy get preference then a civilian who has more experience in a sense of flying?
For example:
Single seat fighter will get hired on at a mainline carrier with 1500 total time.. (yes I know a majority of his time is all turbine PiC)
Civilian 5000 hours 3000 jet pic multiple crossings and world wide experience. Radio Silent.
The Mil guy is more attractive on paper then the civilian. Why?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Mil guys are known quantities. 100% of fighter time is PIC, and not PIC as a captain, but as both PF/PM (since it's just you in the jet, Ricky Bobby) while being responsible for multiple aircraft (1-14 other aircraft, depending on the scenario). A guy flying a 1.7 hr CAS mission is a lot busier than a 737 guy flying LGA-ORD.
Are civilians with a lot of time bad pilots? No. But there's a reason a fighter guy gets a conversion and is looked at with lower time.
10-18-2017 | 04:02 PM
#34
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Training. Experience. Quality of time. Adaptability.
Mil guys are known quantities. 100% of fighter time is PIC, and not PIC as a captain, but as both PF/PM (since it's just you in the jet, Ricky Bobby) while being responsible for multiple aircraft (1-14 other aircraft, depending on the scenario). A guy flying a 1.7 hr CAS mission is a lot busier than a 737 guy flying LGA-ORD.
Are civilians with a lot of time bad pilots? No. But there's a reason a fighter guy gets a conversion and is looked at with lower time.
Mil guys are known quantities. 100% of fighter time is PIC, and not PIC as a captain, but as both PF/PM (since it's just you in the jet, Ricky Bobby) while being responsible for multiple aircraft (1-14 other aircraft, depending on the scenario). A guy flying a 1.7 hr CAS mission is a lot busier than a 737 guy flying LGA-ORD.
Are civilians with a lot of time bad pilots? No. But there's a reason a fighter guy gets a conversion and is looked at with lower time.
That makes sense! Thank you for writing that out, I can actually appreciate this response!
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10-18-2017 | 04:03 PM
#35
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,534
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From: A320 CA
First the obvious: 99% of Mil Pilots have Bachelor's Degrees and the majority (maybe) have Master's Degrees. All of them have graduated from the most prestigious flying schools in the world (Sorry ERAU and UND). Most Mil pilots have held a half dozen jobs within the Air Force (Instructor/Evaluator/Chief of Safety/Chief of Training/Chief Pilot/Director of Operations, etc...) . A comparable civilian resume may have one or 2 of those titles, hence why the bulk of street hires early in the hiring wave from the civilian ranks are former Check airmen and Chief Pilots--or folks with significant extracurricular activity including Union work.
If you're just a "line pilot" your resume stops halfway down the page, whether you've been on the line for 5 or 25 years (unless you're a --you know). It won't matter soon enough anyways, they're gonna run out of Mil Pilots and Regional Check Airmen pretty quick.
10-18-2017 | 04:06 PM
#36
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Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 3,195
Likes: 42
From: Gear slinger
I predominantly have a 135 background.
I knew I would get lashed out at for that statement... my point was not to bash mil guys or fighter pilots. Why does a mil guy get preference then a civilian who has more experience in a sense of flying?
For example:
Single seat fighter will get hired on at a mainline carrier with 1500 total time.. (yes I know a majority of his time is all turbine PiC)
Civilian 5000 hours 3000 jet pic multiple crossings and world wide experience. Radio Silent.
The Mil guy is more attractive on paper then the civilian. Why?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I knew I would get lashed out at for that statement... my point was not to bash mil guys or fighter pilots. Why does a mil guy get preference then a civilian who has more experience in a sense of flying?
For example:
Single seat fighter will get hired on at a mainline carrier with 1500 total time.. (yes I know a majority of his time is all turbine PiC)
Civilian 5000 hours 3000 jet pic multiple crossings and world wide experience. Radio Silent.
The Mil guy is more attractive on paper then the civilian. Why?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Military guys tend to have a broader experience of flying even if the quantity of their hours aren’t nearly as much. The flying they do tends to be more dynamic and skill intensive as well compared to point A to B Airways flying in an ATC controlled environment. They also are used to contributing to the success of the organization outside of just flying (leadership rolls etc.).
Military pilots also have experience going through and successfully completing standardized flight training syllabus. Overall It is not impossible or overly difficult for a military pilot to make the transition to flying 121.
Also, one of my previous employers also recieved tax breaks for hiring recently seperate s vets (within 3 years) who were unemployed for 30 or more days- it wouldn’t be surprising if airlines carried statistics on veteran hiring (I know they do for other minority demographics) to use to bid for government Travel contracts (every government Travel arrangement is paid at full fare so worth 4 ticket sales at the non refundable rate).
Overall, Airlines see the military as a pathway to produce pilots that are successful both and training and flying the line.
10-18-2017 | 04:11 PM
#37
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Joined: Sep 2016
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There's also a less tangible piece in that mil guys often show up on day one squared away. Employers know they will present a professional image (having worn a uniform their whole career), on time, and fall in line.
That last part may not be great for the union side of things, but companies love it.
That last part may not be great for the union side of things, but companies love it.
10-18-2017 | 04:25 PM
#38
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 6,417
Likes: 120
From: Window seat
I predominantly have a 135 background.
I knew I would get lashed out at for that statement... my point was not to bash mil guys or fighter pilots. Why does a mil guy get preference then a civilian who has more experience in a sense of flying?
For example:
Single seat fighter will get hired on at a mainline carrier with 1500 total time.. (yes I know a majority of his time is all turbine PiC)
Civilian 5000 hours 3000 jet pic multiple crossings and world wide experience. Radio Silent.
The Mil guy is more attractive on paper then the civilian. Why?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I knew I would get lashed out at for that statement... my point was not to bash mil guys or fighter pilots. Why does a mil guy get preference then a civilian who has more experience in a sense of flying?
For example:
Single seat fighter will get hired on at a mainline carrier with 1500 total time.. (yes I know a majority of his time is all turbine PiC)
Civilian 5000 hours 3000 jet pic multiple crossings and world wide experience. Radio Silent.
The Mil guy is more attractive on paper then the civilian. Why?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Where did the fighter guy have to rank in his class to get fighters? Where did the 5000/3000 guy have to rank in his class to get hired at his current job? Does any of that matter?
Is there any chance, any, that the guys setting the criteria have flown with guys from multiple backgrounds and considered that when they decided x military fighter = x mililtary heavy time = x civilian experience? (The answer is yes)
And 5000/3000 isn't even the median guy getting hired. It's higher than that.
The airlines prefer guys with 121 experience. 135 or 91 doesn't get as much value. Pipeline patrol? Banner towing? Parachutist pilot? Glider towing? Hello time? All considered lower valued flying background experience.
Why do the airlines prefer X and don't give as much credit, or perhaps any credit, for Y? For that you need to thank, or blame, the guys that went ahead of you. The industry has done some research on who's done better, or worse, in training or their careers and their selection process might reflect that.
FWIW a sense of humor isn't lacking, or more common, based on one's personal flying background. There are great and funny humans from every background. And there are the bottom rung guys from every background.
10-18-2017 | 04:38 PM
#39
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 6,417
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From: Window seat
Debrief? How about inter flight VHF?p while airborne?
Single seater. Big wing rock (rejoin signal) by IP. I slide into wingtip, not sure what's going on. I'm looking at the IP and he's just looking at me. IP - "Can you hear me?" "Don't try to answer me! Nod your head if you hear me!" Big head nod. "You do that again you're going home. DO YOU UNDERSTAND ME?!" Big head nod. "You keep nodding your head until I tell you to stop."
LOL. He got his point across, loud and clear.
It's dangerous at times. At times there's no time to be nice or worry about anyone sensitivities.
Nice guy. Super IP. He calmly explained his POV in the debrief. IP's laughing about it by Happy Hour. :-)))
10-18-2017 | 04:55 PM
#40
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Joined: Jun 2015
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That would actually make regional flying more expensive for AA... instead of folks all exiting under the 12 CA/ 4 FO pay scale they would create professional regional pilots that are long term and expensive. Additionally AA would have to continue to be an industry leader in pay at its WOs to staff (both features of endeavor, and both things AAG has sought to move away from in recent contract negotiations with its WO pilot groups).
The flow is designed to keep AAs Wholly Owned regionals staffed as cost effectively as possible in order to keep its domestic routing profitable. Don’t think for one minute AA cares about who is sitting in the seats of their aircraft as long as they’re qualified and safe.
AA is one of the most competitive airlines to get into OTS because of the flow. If they decide to give seniority #s to the WO pilots they’re not going to worry about turning folks off to applying to them OTS. Plenty still will apply because at the end of the day you can make as much sitting in the right seat at AA as you would in the left seat at a lot of places and the allure of working for a Legacy. AAG will just encourage more folks to come work for the AA WO and double down on that being the path to a garaunteed seniority # at AA.
AA giving WO pilots seniority #s will help both WO recruitment and retention (folks will be less likely to leave to DAL, SWA, UAL etc of they know their seniority# they get as a WO pilot will afford them Better retirement standings at retirement if they stick it out for a few more years flying an RJ).
It wouldn’t surprise me if AAG offered its WO pilots mainline seniority#s in exchange for PBS and more cost efficiencies in salaries/benefits after the current 10 year flow agreements expire in the early 2020s... if the economy hasn’t tanked again by then to decrease pilot hiring elsewhere.
The flow is designed to keep AAs Wholly Owned regionals staffed as cost effectively as possible in order to keep its domestic routing profitable. Don’t think for one minute AA cares about who is sitting in the seats of their aircraft as long as they’re qualified and safe.
AA is one of the most competitive airlines to get into OTS because of the flow. If they decide to give seniority #s to the WO pilots they’re not going to worry about turning folks off to applying to them OTS. Plenty still will apply because at the end of the day you can make as much sitting in the right seat at AA as you would in the left seat at a lot of places and the allure of working for a Legacy. AAG will just encourage more folks to come work for the AA WO and double down on that being the path to a garaunteed seniority # at AA.
AA giving WO pilots seniority #s will help both WO recruitment and retention (folks will be less likely to leave to DAL, SWA, UAL etc of they know their seniority# they get as a WO pilot will afford them Better retirement standings at retirement if they stick it out for a few more years flying an RJ).
It wouldn’t surprise me if AAG offered its WO pilots mainline seniority#s in exchange for PBS and more cost efficiencies in salaries/benefits after the current 10 year flow agreements expire in the early 2020s... if the economy hasn’t tanked again by then to decrease pilot hiring elsewhere.
For the record I'm an AA OTS civilian pilot.
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