Philosophical springboard: what is greed?

The new leadership of the APA?

This happened from 2001-2010. I get your point and argument but this scenario played out before but existed in a less top heavy environment. I edited your post to just the relevant part of my comment.

I believe there to be a limit on the insanity of $12 billion in share buybacks with zero to show for it except the ability to say those shares have been retired. Enough is enough. Parker said the environment at the airlines has changed. “They will make money indefinitely”. His words. Yet we are still on a bk contract making zero headway in negotiations while the company violates our contract daily without regard. Our contract still isn’t implemented. I could go on but it’s Memorial Day and I’d rather focus on things that should be thought about and remembered than inept management.

Speaking of, when are the results going to be out?

I for one am very happy there are things not implemented. They are actually bad.

Bankruptcy contract? What? The total contract value is substantially more than even LAA had back then. Stop with the hyperbole.

I don't think it matters how much the company makes with how much we should get paid. Pay us what our peers make, which we get except for profit sharing (mostly because AA isn't as profitable) and who cares if the company is rolling in the dough or burning money.

Again labor doesn't own the company, the shareholders do.

The company will sign on the dotted line with United or Delta pay/rules. But that would result in massive job losses, because those companies outsource more of the work. So the TWU IAM have to make a choice - if they want the jobs they need to be more flexible with long term costs.

My favorite example of this is with the AWA mouthpieces. They proclaim how awesome their contract was. And it might have had some cool things in it. But they sure as hell make way more momey here. As someone once told me, "money is QOL". I can work 40 hours here what 85 was at US Airways. So eight days a month vs 16-20 at Airways (remember those three day red eyes paying 10 hours!!). There isn't enough soft time in the world to overcome a 100/hr difference in pay.

When regionals have better line construction, more control over PBS, more control over days off, better schedule flexibility, better paying OT provisions, holiday pay, better bonuses, more pay credit during training, more flexibility with vacation blocks it shows the sad state of our work rules and contract.

Please explain how a contract that is woefully deficient in work rules, lacks in soft pay, that had rates that got AA pilots back to parity with what they had prior to 2003 and signed during bankruptcy is hyperbole.

News flash the pensions aren't coming back. The RJ flying is not coming back. Stop living your life from 20 years ago. You can only compare to what the world exists like in present day, or you will be forever living under a "bankruptcy contract".

There was a time when pilots made way more than they do now. Those times aren't coming back either. And I would never wish them to - there are way more good paying jobs for us nowadays.

My life is 1000% better here than it was ever at the regionals flying 5-8 legs a day, early shows, late finishes, with zero support from the company on anything. Despite the rhetoric that you hear from people, they are mostly reminiscing about things they have long forgotten. And I make twice as much.

Please stop being rational. This is no place for it.

I love when guys say their regional had better work rules. I make almost 4x as much a regional captain and work much less. Simple as that.

Not advocating or desiring for a return of pensions. I left a regional nearly three years ago and I’ve forgotten very little. I had 17 years of that. Now that I’m here I will fight always for a better contract even if you think it’s a faux paus to call it a bankruptcy contract.

You’ve lost your edge. I’ll leave you and name user to talk about how great you have it.

Look I’m not saying we couldn’t improve in a lot of areas, we definitely could. But in the grand scheme of aviation jobs we have it pretty good. We have it amazing compared to the general population.

We aren’t doctors or lawyers. Our experience isn’t portable. We are effed if AA goes out of business. I just want to see the company succeed and continue to be profitable.

First and foremost, the mechanics needs to free themselves of the rampers.

One requires a license, the other a heartbeat.

I’m by no means a company apologist, but from what I can tell AA has offered them industry leading everything FOR industry standard scope. And this is for scope by attrition. No one is getting furloughed of a contract.

This is why we can’t have nice things. And this is why we will never have DAL profit sharing.




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Scope by attrition = throw your children under the bus

Exactly. We cant bring regional flying to mainline like Delta has been doing because our mainline cost structure is too high. Not the pilots but the rampers, gate agents, FA's, GSE, mechanics, etc. It is what it is but it is hard to watch a TWU guy threaten to shut the place down. Those rampers are not invested in this career like we are. I get everyone wants a piece of the pie but that just leaves that much less for us pilots.

Ahhhh.... Sweet, Sweet Naivety...:cool:

Honest question, is this really what people want for their kids? To do the same thing we did?

The world changes. We are very, very lucky for that. Elevator operators, buggy whip makers, film developers, navigators, whaling boat captains, rotary phone repairmen, the list goes on and on. There's a difference between making sure the people trained and employed in a certain profession are taken care of, and tilting at windmills to preserve a job that won't be around forever for people who haven't graduated highschool yet.

I won't be pushing my kids to be pilots. If they want to, great. But I fully expect planes to be single pilot in 30 years, on their way towards being fully autonomous. As it should be. Fares will be cheaper, fewer cancellations, and more diverse routes. What I expect is for the unions and companies to ensure a smooth and secure transition for those of us who are committed to the industry when that change occurs.

ramp jobs will be around for awhile. i think the person you quoted was saying more along the lines of keeping it a job that can pay the bills with health insurance and a 401(k). i think if AA had their way with scope, they would make it a min wage job with no bennies. but the jobs would still exist.

The major problem here is that you are comparing your pay and schedule to the regionals. Something below you in your career.

You need to be comparing yourself to your peers at Delta United and SWA.

That would be like a Doctor being content with sub-par compensation saying "well I am paid more than I was in my residency!"

Are you making more than Delta? Better work rules than them?

Exactly....

I think you guys missed his point. His point was that pilots here say “my regional had better work rules and QOL”, and he was simply rebutting that idea. Yes, one can cherry pick certain specific aspects of our contract and say that “my last regional airline did this or that better”, but in an overall sense, no. ALL of my Regional Airline pilot friends work more hours and more days than I do, and for a lot less money.
With that said, we are not working for a Regional, we are working for the largest airline in the world, one that many consider to be having an “”off” year while profiting a •mere• 3 billion dollars or so.
Our work rules and total compensation need to at least match Delta’s, if not surpass them.

It's great they make more than us, I'm happy for them, but AA and Delta are not the same company and have different work group cost structures. I would hope everyone realized this before applying at AA. I had zero desire to work for Delta, I never applied. Guys trying to win the Richard measuring contest will continuously be sorely disappointed no matter where they are, and never be happy.

United once had an industry leading contract. They were already losing money prior to 9/11. I personally have zero desire to work at a place that gets more and more uncompetitive as time goes by and sees stagnation or worse due to labor cost structure. Money isn't everything to me, longevity and stability are worth way more with the ability to plan your life.

Imagine if AA/US/TWA had never stagnated and remained competitive to SWA. How much better would that have been for their careers vs a few guys at AA getting an A fund? At US, they got the PBCG. Yay for having an awesome contract but losing 1/2 of your pilot group over a decade!

As far as comparing to a regional, I was not the one who did that, I responded to someone who was. So maybe you should quote them instead.

It's important that we are at least industry average, which we are above when you look at competitor contracts and pay. YES, THERE WILL BE SOME PLACES THAT HAVE SOME GOOD THINGS IN THEM, but overall our compensation is quite good. And little base hit improvements should and will happen. Comparing us to a regional, at least mine which was still a decent place back then is laughable. Not even worth talking about.

If anything the regional level is like our residency, yet it pays more and you work less, and here in the majors we will outearn most doctors and work faaaaaar less with less stress. Yes some doctors will outearn us but again who cares if you want to make a ton of money and be stressed quit and go to medical school if you think you can hack it. It's almost laughable guys compare themselves to doctors, my CA this trip didn't even go to college yet he's making 300+ a year flying a domestic narrowbody.

So you got here three years ago and think you are working under a bankruptcy contract?

Why did you come here? Why didn't you go to Delta if it's so much better? Or United?

When I started at LUS I made $35/hr. THAT was a bankruptcy contract!

What is our starting pay now? $90 or something! UFB.

I think you need to set your expectations in life higher. As far as being uncompetitive we have the worst contract amongst the majors and the lowest operating margins. We are poorly managed and our crappy inferior product means we lag our peers in revenue per available mile. People will pay a little bit more to stay at a Marriott over a Holiday Inn. Time for a management overhaul.

He’s not talking about just the pilot contract. He’s talking about all of the other unionized workgroups.

No he wasn’t. He was responding to Buzzlightyears post lamenting that AA has a terrible pilot contract. Just because our contract now is better than post double bankruptcy US Airways east doesn’t mean we don’t have a garbage contract. Just getting parity with Delta would probably drive 1,000 new pilots.

We have more total aircraft, more group 4 aircraft, yet less total pilots than Delta. We are becoming Mesa Grande.

I highly doubt this contract has better work rules than either east or west had post bankruptcy. As long as I’ve been here we have always had some of the worst work rules compared to other legacies.

Yeah the Airways contract was so great I made as much or more as an RJ guy in a 50 seater than their Capts made operating an Airbus.

Don't forget the 11 hour three day trips either. Those were phenomenal. Oh and my favorite, no line guarantee except for the last trip of the month so when your legs cancel you lose pay.

Warning: thread drift,
but ACD was stupid according to the anti DC crowd. The only drawback to ACD is that now those trips pay 15:45 and go way more senior than before.

We had 11 hour 3 days at AA. I’m not talking about pay rates. Talking about work rules. I know when I got hired in the 90s USAIR had a good contract.

If our benchmark is the US Airways contract and career of that era, God help us.

US Air ground contracts stipulated mechanics do pushbacks. Since we support our union brothers, we should totally be pushing for that back too, right?

Remember this thread when it happens to you and your career, while you're trying to explain how that is somehow didferent.

Same old song and dance...

It would behoove other work groups to support us no matter what - we are the only thing keeping them employed as mainline employees.

Without airplanes classified as "mainline", the company is free to outsource everything. All that would be left most likely is management staff overseeing revenue/sales and smaller silos overseeing the various contractors.

Scary concept!

I watched from across the aisle as Parker courted the APA during talks and the merger marriage. I saw the LBFO, then the amended offer (???) of higher pay rates and yearly increases. The pilots here folded like a cheap suit. Are you saying because I’ve been here three years I can’t have an opinion on where we stand contractually? I’ve heard it before, you’ll be senior someday.

SWA was a contender for me as was AA. I have a business in DFW with kids in school here. I’ve commuted enough to know it’s not a good fit, so UAL and DAL are out. Now that I’m here I’m thrilled. Life is good. Our contract is not. Contracts at cyclical. Today’s worst won’t always be the worst. I knew that coming in. Here we are today, fighting for the best. Except guys like you are content which only makes the fight more difficult.

All the majors started in the mid $30’s an hour for about 15 years. Your point is moot and proves my point that airline contacts are cyclical at the same time.

We are at the bottom of the work rules of any comparable major. At a time such as this during negotiations how would you choose to label our current contract?

Umm.. no.

I have less days off than I did at a regional. Also making quite a bit less money. Not on probation year anymore either which shows how crappy our contract really is. Second year anniversary = second year pay? Nope. Not at AA.

Not to mention now I get to work on scheduled days off for free up until NOON on RSV with zero penalty for them doing this. Lovely.

Could my prior regional just move my days off (2 moveable days)? No. All my days off were "Golden". As they should be.

If my regional did fly me into a day off for unavoidable circumstances I actually got a RETURN DAY OFF and junior man pay guarantee. AA you basically get a stick in the eye and no return day off they stole from you.

RO? Lol

Coverage days basically everyday?

Premium only 1.5??? Then sick later.. Uh oh.. What a joke.

Which brings up how you can't even call in sick for just one day of a trip even if you are only sick for one day of a trip.. you have to dump the whole thing and lose all your sick time. WTF? What regional does this?

Could continue on and on with our trash scheduling section vs a regional for several more pages but anyone that came from a regional recently already has realized this stuff by now..

Our vacation bidding, post award schedule adjustment and PBS system is probably the worst in the entire US airline industry.

This contract is total garbage for a LEGACY carrier. People at the regionals were expecting improvements moving up to AA not a sub regional contract with higher pay rates. The sad part is our leadership seems to be totally ignorant to the fact that even regionals now have better work rules than we do. I've brought it up in emails, conference calls and they just blow it off like it isn't even real. Well, maybe the out of touch widebody leadership should have listened to the junior pilots because that's how they got themselves voted out and will continue to be replaced if they keep ignoring the rapidly growing population of below the line pilots not willing to accept another garbage "pay rate" contract ignoring narrowbody QOL issues.

Some of the people here are so delusional that they think they are making 4X what a regional CA makes. Ha.. Maybe at Delta they are but not at AA.. Highly doubt more than about .001% of people here are making 450-500K+ unless they have zero life. When I left a regional over a year ago there was an offer to START at an AA wholly owned regional as a street hire CA and make 120K FIRST YR with bonus. Far more than a 1st yr pilot at American makes. That is at AA's own wholly owned regional paying more for a 1st year pilot than a 1st year pilot at mainline!! This is not a joke or exaggeration, it's Pathetic this is allowed. APA leadership is oblivious to it/and or don't care.

Sounds like you’re comparing senior regional captain pay to year 2 fo pay, prob on reserve. Obviously in that situation the regional would make more if they were senior check airmen who flew a lot. But our group 2 and above captains easily make 3-4x the average regional captain.

You can’t call in sick for one day of a trip for a good reason, it would be a manning concession. The company would love for us to ask for that in the next contract.

The contract needs lots of work. No doubt about that, mainly in the reassignment area. I’m confident the union can get us a solid new contract.

Yeah, we have a ton of friggin' work to do on our contract, but GMAFB with this less time off and less pay than a regional. I'm a 5 year narrowbody FO doing better than $200K just flying my line with almost 17 days off per month. United and Delta have it better and that's something we need to fix, but let's not get carried away.

Yeah when I got here my schedules were really bad and the pay was worse. Anyone coming from a regional to here will have a crappy few years unless they go to a very junior domicile. That's just common sense. You're at the bottom of the totem pole again.

The alternative is you stay "senior" at a regional, big fish in the little pond so to speak.

I worked at a regional with an excellent contract. Except for RO most of our stuff is similar. RO is actually industry standard at the major level. Premium was also 150%, and if you called in sick you lost it.

The movable days are BS and that totally needs to be fixed, but honestly I never got moved or flown into a day off. It may happen but it's extremely rare. That shouldn't be a problem getting removed, or modified so you get 1.5 pay for going into your day off.

Also he thinks that if worked into a day off it's for free. That isn't true. If you finish on reserve at 10am on your day off you go on call starting at 10am during your next reserve sequence.

I was a DCA new hire bask in 1999 and we had great schedules and fun trips. After some trips a few guys/gals would hit the bars in Crystal City. To bad times have changed.