LGA Town Hall
 

Anybody else watch the videos from this on jetnet? Gets pretty heated...

The Goodfellas vs Robbie. Epic

If you listen carefully during one of the questions about recalls it addresses one of my points about this combined IAM TWU agreement. Several airports had hit cliffs requiring increased staffing due to mainline flight numbers. This is a big deal. As more mainline flights go in and out of stations, it may require swapping Envoy for mainline staffing AND hiring other support staff such as facilities maintenance and is a huge component of our costs. 1/4 of the company is union ground handling and facility maintenance. Yes we have unionized ground maintenance workers who work on jetways and ground power etc. This is one reason the company continues to pursue using Envoy RJs over mainline 100 seaters or even increased jets of any type. I remember hearing somewhere Isom I believe stating they were happy with the fleet size moving forward and would simply up-gauge as needed in the future.

Yet look at all the pilots that "support" the ground handlers. It's insane. No other airline employs unionized "stock clerks" that distribute parts. Or do grounds maintenance. Etc.

IMO the APA, SWAPA, ALPA, etc have all gone about this bargaining incorrectly. They needed to take a page from the AMA and restrict pilot supply. The 1,500 rule was a gift from god himself. Higher barriers to entry have accomplished what decades of bargaining never even came close to doing. That is how you accomplish meaningful lasting wage and benefit gains.

Looking at those videos I can imagine myself in Isom's shoes when the NYC subway worker says they are going to fight. He's going to get a huge wake up call when they strike, the company locks them out and says "bye Felicia!" and puts thousands of management and support staff to work (and contracts out with other ground handling companies or just starts another one). *Poof* no more union workers!

I had no idea Isom came from NWA. It's all coming together now.

On a side note that NYC subway worker embodies unionized workgroups. Look up some articles on NYC and LI subway workers and not only their yearly pay but retirement pensions. They are soaking the local government and taxpayers and shut down public transportation on a whim. They have no competition and as such can afford to do this. If they shut AA down we are f'd. Everyone at AA will lose. These people are directly impacting our lives and economic futures so people without a HS diploma with zero invested in their "career" can load pieces of luggage and make $70k a year doing so.

I guess that makes me an ahole to think like that.

So, what are you going to do when another union strikes?

What every other pilot here would do, and what every pilot union leadership has called for in past incidences of other workgroups striking within the past couple decades.

https://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/20/b...northwest.html

I don't have a dog in your fight however I take the union at their word and it is going to get VERY ugly. They aren't messing around this time.

That was hard to watch.

Why are the mechanics tied up with the rampers? That would be like us negotiating with the flight attendants. What a nightmare.

My thoughts also. I must be an ******* also.

Just support your fellow union employees. How pi$$ed off would the pilots be after 5 years into the merger with no contract?

You look at them and think some of their proposals and asks are silly, but I can promise you that they look at pilots the same way... with some prima donna stuff in our contract too. Do you want them to support us when we are battling it out with management or not?

I understand the importance with seeing both side's point of view in situations like this.... but I certainly agree with the mechanics on this one. The company is downright greedy in outsourcing their jobs. The company would outsource everything up to the B777/A330 to the "regionals" if they could. Would you let them, or put your foot down and fight?

Look at the age of these Mechanics. I think they have very little to lose. They figure if the company doesn’t give them what they want then we shut her down and walk into the sunset. Maybe our pilot group will be in the same situation when our battle drags on. We are an older work group and hopefully have some money saved up for the battle ahead. I could easily walk away from this company if it comes down to that. I don’t want that but we have to be prepared to walk. Save, save, save.

For those of you that haven’t been here very long. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best. Assume the good deals we have today will be gone tomorrow. This industry is brutal. Be prepared to have a life style change. I have always lived like it could stop tomorrow. That has enabled me and my family to survive two furloughs and a bankruptcy. My assumption when I started was the retirement would go away. I have never not maxed out the 401k. Now I’m rich and can not give a crap what management says and does. As my friend calls it his “F@#k you fund”. Meaning he always wants to have enough in the bank to say F@#k you to his boss.

This is going to get very ugly very fast this summer. Watch out.

What world do you live in that the mechanics get released to strike?

https://onemileatatime.com/american-union-threatens-airline/

Exactly! If I were them I would be ****ed that we were tied to them...just one more thing Delta doesn’t have to deal with, they get to outsource EVERYTHING. Someone correct me if I am wrong but I believe their pilots are the only unionized work group they have...? But on the flip side Delta does a great job of “taking care of” their employees with the huge PS. I doubt Bobby and Dougie would do the same.

Every other work group rides our coat tails. The fact there are even mainline or regional/eagle flights is because of the pilot scope contract. If we were to sign away scope it would mean FAs, DXs, ground crew go away completely. And you want me to support a group that has zero invested in a "career" throwing bags? I'm sorry but no. They owe us, we don't owe them anything.

The company will sign Delta or United ground contracts right now. Would we be negotiating if the company offers that?

They are being insanely unreasonable. I don't support unreasonable.

The mechanics are tied to them, and are getting screwed. That is on them for tying up with the ground handlers and stock clerks.

Honestly at this point I welcome self help and a company lockout. I don't see it getting resolved any other way.

"The company will sign Delta or United ground contracts right now. Would we be negotiating if the company offers that?

They are being insanely unreasonable. I don't support unreasonable"

It is like you are my evil twin. For the support your union brothers pilots out there, what if they asked for a thousand dollars an hour? I know thats a crazy number but the point is there is reasonable and unreasonable. They seem to be on the unreasonable side of the equation and thats not a good place to be.

Airline employees will never enjoy the leverage that the LIRR,NYC Subway, or NYC Sanitation enjoy. They strike and people are instantly affected. There isn’t an alternate subway to take, an alternate commuter train or another carting company to remove trash. AA mechanics go on strike? Guess I have to take Southwest out of Dallas today or Jetblue to Bermuda. Not the end of the world for the traveling public.

So pilots can understand what management is trying to do to the mechanics:

For every position retired or resigned, they have the right to OUTSOURCE that work to ABC Airplane Maintenance Company.... or Eagle, or whoever.

In other words if there are 30,000 mechanic jobs right now and 1000 retire this year, next year there are 29,000 jobs and the rest is outsourced. It would continue down that slippery slope.

Imagine that if every time a senior pilot hit age 65 and retired, the slot that a new hire would take to replace went straight to the regionals.

The seniority list and pilot group would shrink daily. The seniority list would be half the size in about 5 years.... giving all those jobs outsourced to the regionals. Eventually there would be no mainline jobs left... they would all be outsourced.

Would pilots ever go for that? He!! no!

So why the heck do you think mechanics would vote yes for this union busting proposal?

Delta doesn't have "ground contracts." Non-union.

Our "coat tails" are built on the union movement. We wouldn't have pilots making $330/hr without the union movement.

I always get a kick out of major pilots who think that their paycheck, schedule and lifestyle are all a product of their hard work alone. It is not. It is the product of pilots and union workers combining forces with the labor union. It is the product of collective bargaining. It is the product of protecting your job (scope). So, the mechanic, ground workers, FAs success is our success.

"They owe us, we don't owe them anything."

Just listen to yourself.

A union is only as strong as its weakest member. Please don't side with management and be our weakest member.

So their union is threatening to burn AA to the ground yet Vasu throws a few F-bombs around at JFK, they want him fired, and their feelings are hurt. Really, they are full of fecal matter.

I feel for the line mechanics. But, their union leadership are a bunch of unprofessional thugs. They give ALL union members a bad name. Those types are the reason the average person has a negative connotation about unions.

What a joke trying to give Vasu a hard time for saying eff. They told Isom they would fight him, bloody the AA brand and burn it to the ground. But they want Vasu, someone who makes their job possible, fired. Clowns.

The company’s contract proposal is interesting. Pay raises and guaranteed employment at their current stations. But only for current members. It really brings up a tough ethical question on whether the current generation is responsible for the next.

What would we do if they made the same proposal to us? Imagine never again having a pilot hired junior to you. I would fight it with any means necessary. I can't really blame them for doing the same. I do blame management for making them.

When these "smart" management types are paid millions a year. And enrich themselves with stock...wasting 13 billion on stock buybacks, money that could go to building a better airline, its up to them to figure this out. Thats why they get paid the big bucks and have the nice office. They get zero sympathy from me.

The problem is when they run the company into the ground, they receive a seven figure bonus on their way out the door. The pilots are left bailing water off the sinking ship with their careers hanging in the balance.


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Of course we are overpaid. I have stated that multiple times on here. But that is irrelevant to the discussion.

Our scope keeps the other union members employed - they have ZERO scope without AA mainline aircraft. If it all went regional, they would all
be Envoy or Piedmont or DGS or whatever. We drive their job count, which is a separate issue altogether with our pay, so not sure why you keep trying to make a connection where there is none.

If they outsourced 100% of mtc or ground handling would we still be employed at AA? Yes.

If we sold scope for $5 mil a pilot and retired right now, would they have jobs at AA? NO.

It is not unreasonable to take a stand against one's job being outsourced.

We should support our ground cohorts 100%. Especially our mechanics. Just because we are better educated and make more money than them, that doesn’t make us better than them in the eyes of our management. AA is a money laundering operation under the facade of an airline. Management needs to pay up if they want the golden goose to stay alive.

Call it what you want, AA has said they'd give the same pay and work rules to our guys from either the delta "agreement" or united contract.

Our folks want the moon and in response the company is limiting the amount of backfill. That isn't unreasonable either.

Is there a limit to their demands that would cause you not to support them 100%? Just curious. Say they wanted 50% 401K direct contribution, A fund, $400 an hour, and to have a no furlough cause. Would that be too much? There is a line somewhere. Some people feel they are being unreasonable in their current demands, thats it.

Nope. Not after AA has used $12B to buy back stock.

Well if thats the case then why arent they asking for a Tesla a month for every month of the contract as a bonus?

Dude, seriously? How long have you been here at AA? This company is operating off our backs. The pilot contract from 5 years ago is yet to be fully implemented. The company blatantly walks over us. The management despises us. Stop being a shill for them.

$12B in stock buy backs. They are mortgaging off our future and using our productivity to fill the pockets of their Wall Street friends. All the while working off bankruptcy contracts. Time for them to pay up or suffer the consequences.

For the most part I completely agree with you. Just asking if there is a limit to whats reasonable or not. I believe there is a limit, do you?

Of course there would be a limit to their demands. And no reasonable person would think that they are even remotely close to that limit.

Comparing protecting their jobs from outsourcing with a Tesla for every mechanic is completely ridiculous.

I always get a kick out of major pilots who think that their paycheck, schedule and lifestyle are all a product of their hard work alone. It is not. It is the product of pilots and union workers combining forces with the labor union. It is the product of collective bargaining. It is the product of protecting your job (scope). So, the mechanic, ground workers, FAs success is our success.

"They owe us, we don't owe them anything."

"BK are good, and those damned union pensions are just too expensive, and they all make too much and don't work hard enough..."

All regular predictable comments from pilots.

Excepting of course when the BK is used to steal their pensions and force them to work harder or more for less.

That'sdifferent.

(Yeah... I have earned my living in this business for 42 years now, 33 of those as a pilot...)

First that $12b is shareholder money not yours. Labor doesn't own the company.

Most of the items not implemented we don't actually want implemented, such as electronic notification. We make good wages, well above most pilots not only worldwide but also in the US. Delta has better overall compensation right now due to their profit sharing. So who cares? A pilot group or two makes more than us. I really don't care.

As for stepping over us, I have actually not seen that at all. I'm sure it happens occasionally but for the vast majority of cases I have had excellent and positive experiences with chiefs and scheduling. Even the hotels desk. A few weeks ago we had an unscheduled overnight in IAH, we walked to the desk and saw a couple dozen UAL crewmembers looking for rooms, meanwhile we were assigned some within three minutes.

I would much rather have a viable company that thinks long term than one that becomes the old US Air, burdened with contracts it cannot afford to pay and is rife with waste.

How many US Airways guys want a repeat of their careers? How many TWA guys want a repeat? How many post 2000 AA pilots want a repeat? Keep in mind SWA grew like gang busters back then while AA and US lost market share and jobs.

AA had an amazing run which many forget was brought on by the B scale. They were the SWA of the 80's. Piedmont was going nuts under Bethune until...US Air bought them. Bethune went to CAL and they too did extremely well with their lower labor costs. AWA had a similar run in the 90's, also due to lower labor cost advantages.

Delta has been nonunion and while they paid their pilots they didn't have nearly the same cost structure other carriers did due to non-union employees offering flexibility. Yet look here, at how many still want our ground handlers to make $70k/yr to move bags.

In 2010 or so a US Airways ground handler came up to the cockpit and was talking about their "stolen" pensions". He didn't miss a beat. He used that as motivation to get off his ass and put his money to work for him. He was accumulating rental homes to replace his pension, something he could've done long ago and been retired by then.

Most guys here are fat dumb and happy and feel entitled to more. No one owes us anything.

I totally agree it's BS upper management gets untouchable pensions and RSUs. But we are not upper management. Someone who is at a VP level has a lot of stress and pressure on their job to perform. Believe it or not we are actually paid more than most of them anyway. Hands down we are some of the highest paid employees at the company, at least from the director side down.

Oh and BTW, Parker and Isom have lost tens of millions on their stock personally. Meanwhile our wages have not gone down.

My biggest beef with AA management is their lack of focus on our customers. They treat the airline as public transportation with little regard for branding. Delta figured it out. Spirit owns it's brand - cheap transportation from A to B. What is AA? Nothing special. If we aren't careful we will be the next US Air.

To me, the biggest sticking point seems is the retirement/resign issue, and the company being able to outsource any new hirer/replacement positions. I honestly don’t think that’s a huge ask by their union to have that language removed and shows the pure greed of the company, the board, their negotiating lawyers and so on. It’s minimal savings over the short term, and probably minimal over the long term, but gains today for the company. I thinks it more of a union busting play for short term business models. This won’t affect any of the Execs, BOD, or the market in 15 years. All of them will be gone and the market will be dealing with what’s happening in the world in 15 years. Which means it’s a power play to bust the union now, to get returns now! It’s all perception today, not 15 years from now as they (Managememt) claim it’s about future success of AA. Busting a union with that language gives the investors and the market a “company won” today view. Thus gains will be made. No one cares about Isom’s and team 15 year plan cause he really doesn’t either.

It kinda hard for me to see the company’s side on saving minimal amount of money in their eyes, when it’s seems more about busting a union. It’s also hard to see the company as caring about AA and it’s “team members” when they have jeopardized the future of AA financially with stock buyback, a huge debt load, and uncontrolled spending. It is literally in our faces, and mine daily right now in long term training. Pretty amazing to see the amount of arrogance, ego and greed this leadership team has each time I drive passed the new HQ on the way to the training center. It’s a complete monument to stroke their ego and mental masterbation on their perception. It’s a waste. The old HQ was fine as a building. They could’ve saved millions refurbishing and remodeling that already existing facility. This ain’t about money or success. It’s about the perception of power and feeding of greed.

Drinks you make good, logical valid points.

I too agree the backfill provision is the major sticking point. But keep in mind WHY the company is asking for it - it's simply because we have (by far) the largest % of ground handling and mtc done by our own people.

In a perfect world everything would be AA. I would bet the company would even prefer it as it means more management jobs. But when the union comes in and makes that entry level baggage handler job a career job with medical and pension, meanwhile Delta's costs are under half, there is significant incentive to outsource. The union wants ALL the jobs with higher pay. That is what put US Air in their position after the PSA/Piedmont mergers.

As for the new HQ - building such an extravagant (set!) of buildings is a good example of not leading by example. You don't see the carriers they are comparing themselves to building massive trophy towers. Where is their fiscal restraint? Yet they want us to sit in hot-ass airplanes to save $10 in gas? Management and our support staff sit in air conditioned offices, meanwhile I sat in the back of a 737 commuting home yesterday that must've been 90*if not warmer for the pushback and 30 min taxi. The pax around me were livid and kept making remarks about how hot it was.

when the union comes in and makes that entry level baggage handler job a career job with medical and pension,

Wouldn't want those people doing the work that produces the revenue making a decent living, having health insurance or maybe a small pension...

No... Not every job should pay $100k or $300k, but labor and those that provide it have value too.

Pensions are Ponzi schemes. They were created by feudal German lords and live on to this day from personal idiocy.

A typical 401k, I can understand, but pensions are ridiculous.