An important video for AMR/LCC pilots
#81
Sounds like you have a PLAN......Just one thing, how do you propose to effectively compete in the NEW "Global arena" against the emerging Titans such as Delta and United???
Size does matter when effectively competing in the NEW norm...
......And NO, growing AA's network, tomb-stone strategy, by 20% will do nothing more than accelerate AA's demise..
Size does matter when effectively competing in the NEW norm...
......And NO, growing AA's network, tomb-stone strategy, by 20% will do nothing more than accelerate AA's demise..
WD at AWA
#82
Flies With The Hat On
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,339
Likes: 0
From: Right of the Left Seat
AA pilots, this forum here exposes the virus you will be subjected to, times ten!, in a merger with US Air. Your pay scale out of BK is way above theirs, your ac orders are huge(actually 100 MORE planes than they even own), none of your bases will change, thousands of retirements ahead and you don't have to be the largest in the world to be stable and profitable. Given all this, why in the heII would an AA pilot want to bet the farm on a merger with a group that is eating itself alive from the inside? IMO AA pilots would be far better off to stay as far away from the US Air mess as possible.
The few bad eggs here are the squeakiest wheels.
#83
Line Holder
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,551
Likes: 22
From: B777/CA retired
The east west bickering will go away after a merger that subordinates both groups to the back of the bus. If ALPA had not been tossed and the SLI had been implemented then everyone except a few would have gotten over their mad years ago and we would be on our second joint contract by now. I am firmly convinced of this.
R57, you ask if I feel this way because we came out so much better under the Nicolau. I ask you, who came out better? I didn't, I lost 18 percent seniority on the Nicolau. Our top guys did even worse. But as I have said, it doesn't matter what I feel about it, we were going to abide by whatever decision came out. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. We can all claim whatever we want after the fact, so, again, this is all meaningless. Did we get a windfall because we were not stapled according to date of hire? I don't think so, we kept the seats and jobs were brought to the merger until Doug took them away.
I think this will go to arbitration because that will be the only way people will be able to deflect blame onto another entity. You brought up the concept of a panel. That's a fine idea, but they should be professional arbitrators. It will be interesting to see how the UCAL SLI is done. There is a disparity in the length of service in the seniority lists from both. How an arbitrator handles that will be illuminating.
If you are talking to Hummel you better get him to start getting serious about dropping the DOH stance. The company sent a letter to the NMB stating that USAPA will not get off the DOH position and thus no negotiations can succeed since the present seniority proposal from USAPA is a DFR. The company will not move from their position until a seniority list that looks, acts and quacks like the Nicolau is used. This DOH position will get USAPA shut out from the merger process as well. I'm not saying the Nicolau list will be presented by LCC, I don't know that for certain, but the company is very aware of the legal ramifications of not using that list, or something very close to it.
R57, you ask if I feel this way because we came out so much better under the Nicolau. I ask you, who came out better? I didn't, I lost 18 percent seniority on the Nicolau. Our top guys did even worse. But as I have said, it doesn't matter what I feel about it, we were going to abide by whatever decision came out. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. We can all claim whatever we want after the fact, so, again, this is all meaningless. Did we get a windfall because we were not stapled according to date of hire? I don't think so, we kept the seats and jobs were brought to the merger until Doug took them away.
I think this will go to arbitration because that will be the only way people will be able to deflect blame onto another entity. You brought up the concept of a panel. That's a fine idea, but they should be professional arbitrators. It will be interesting to see how the UCAL SLI is done. There is a disparity in the length of service in the seniority lists from both. How an arbitrator handles that will be illuminating.
If you are talking to Hummel you better get him to start getting serious about dropping the DOH stance. The company sent a letter to the NMB stating that USAPA will not get off the DOH position and thus no negotiations can succeed since the present seniority proposal from USAPA is a DFR. The company will not move from their position until a seniority list that looks, acts and quacks like the Nicolau is used. This DOH position will get USAPA shut out from the merger process as well. I'm not saying the Nicolau list will be presented by LCC, I don't know that for certain, but the company is very aware of the legal ramifications of not using that list, or something very close to it.
#84
Banned
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,240
Likes: 0
And in response the NMB said usapa is done and parked indefinatelly. Of course usapa hasn't told their members this, so much for the most transparent union ever.
#85
There is nothing US Airways has that can fill any glaring network deficiencies at AA. Having a CLT hub does nothing to get us the much needed slots at JFK. Having a PHX hub does nothing to bolster a Pacific route network.
What else does US Airways do for AA? Increase yields? AA already leads UAL and DAL for the year (sans the 3Q "issue" we had), and that is before employee concession even kick in. More "revenue?" The last time AA led the industry in revenue, we led the industry in losses. "Synergies?" What are they? Is someone now going to book off DAL so they can connect through our new LAS "synergy" hub?
If someone wants to promote this merger for all of the wonderful things it brings, than you had better be prepared to start getting specific. Talking about vague things like "more revenue", and "growth", and "synergies" just doesn't cut it. What are the new routes going to be? How are we going to grow in critical markets like NYC? Will the pilots of this newly merged airline going to be flying Pacific routes? If so, what are the new routes? How are these new routes possible now and they were not before the merger? How will the employees assimilate? How can Doug Parker run a successful airline, create a premier product, and siphon customers away from UAL and DAL with 3 factions constantly at war?
You see, there are a lot of critical questions out there that need to be answered before everyone starts playing airline analyst. Regurgitating talking points from one news source just doesn't cut it. If this merger were such a clear cut no-brainer, than the UCC would have endorsed and pushed for it long ago.
#86
Flies With The Hat On
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,339
Likes: 0
From: Right of the Left Seat
The pilots’ union at American Airlines stresses the importance of reaching a transition agreement regarding a possible merger (Updated 10:30 p.m. with American response) | Airline Biz Blog
Update at 10:30 p.m.: American is participating in discussions with US Airways, the APA and USAPA to evaluate “the impact of pilot labor costs, integration and seniority on a potential merger,” said American spokesman Mike Trevino. Discussions continue, he said.
Last week, U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Sean Lane approved American and its parent AMR Corp.’s request for a six-week extension to file their reorganization plan. The airline now has until March 11 to file its reorganization plan and until May 10 to seek acceptance from creditors.
Here’s the APA’s entire letter:
Update at 10:30 p.m.: American is participating in discussions with US Airways, the APA and USAPA to evaluate “the impact of pilot labor costs, integration and seniority on a potential merger,” said American spokesman Mike Trevino. Discussions continue, he said.
Last week, U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Sean Lane approved American and its parent AMR Corp.’s request for a six-week extension to file their reorganization plan. The airline now has until March 11 to file its reorganization plan and until May 10 to seek acceptance from creditors.
Here’s the APA’s entire letter:
Dec. 27, 2012
Fellow pilots,
The APA Board of Directors reconvened today at 9 a.m. at union headquarters as part of the ongoing four-party negotiations between American Airlines and US Airways management, APA and the US Airline Pilots Association (USAPA) on behalf of US Airways’ pilots.
These negotiations are aimed at reaching a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU), or interim agreement, to address each pilot group’s respective concerns if the two carriers proceed to merge. The MOU would serve as the transition agreement and would also include improvements to our newly ratified collective bargaining agreement.
Some have suggested that the only way APA should “agree” to a merger is to first negotiate an integrated seniority list with USAPA. Major corporate mergers involving represented employee groups don’t work that way. No legal mechanism exists that would allow union-represented employees to interfere with a major transaction such as a merger. With McCaskill-Bond the law of the land, unless management predicates a merger on an integrated seniority list—much as we saw at Southwest in their acquisition of Air Tran–we are left to pick up the pieces after the merger has occurred.
While APA’s institutional position has consistently been one of support for a merger between the two carriers within bankruptcy, support for a merger at this juncture is not unanimous within the union. Likewise, AMR management has not embraced the concept of expediting a merger before restructuring concludes and clearly wants to retain control of the corporation and consider a merger on their terms following exit from bankruptcy. Keep in mind that AMR management has executed four different mergers—beginning with Trans Caribbean and ending with TWA—while completely disregarding the impact on our pilots’ seniority. I doubt that pilot seniority is anywhere near the top of their concerns right now. Likewise, I doubt that pilot seniority would be a key consideration if they were to execute a merger with US Airways, JetBlue or any other carrier following an independent exit from bankruptcy.
Instead, what we’re seeing is likely a deliberate attempt to sew fear amongst our pilots in an effort to derail consensual merger talks. A small group of pilots, with assistance from AMR management and a former CEO, has been advancing the notion that an integrated list should be a precondition to any further consideration of a merger. Their motives are crystal clear: hold on to the reins of power and control any merger on their terms. To be clear, fundamental capital transactions such as a merger involve a large number of parties. By virtue of the 13.5 percent equity stake we now hold as part of our ratified agreement, APA can exert influence over various aspects of a merger as a major stakeholder in AMR. However, we don’t have the ability to stop the clock and make everyone else wait while we sort through all of the issues associated with an integrated seniority list. To suggest otherwise is disingenuous, and simply ignorant of the law and the facts.
Our advisers have indicated that if we do not finalize an MOU in the very near future, in all likelihood there will be no merger before American Airlines exits restructuring. An MOU specifying wages and working conditions for the pilots, along with interim seniority protection in the form of fences, would enable creditors to identify synergies that would result from a merger of the two carriers. Absent an MOU, the financial benefits of a merger would remain unclear.
We all understand that seniority is extremely important to our careers. Of course, your seniority number is irrevocably tied to the airline you work for, so it’s likewise critical for your employer to be able to compete and thrive. The analysts who study our industry and make judgments about which airlines are best positioned in the marketplace have been virtually unanimous in the view that a merger with US Airways represents the best way to address our airline’s current deficiencies. Make no mistake—a merger of some sort is inevitable. The questions before us: Who do you want at the helm and do you want the ability to have some control over the process? In a post-bankruptcy merger, we would have little ability to influence any potential leadership changes at American Airlines and would represent nothing more than a speed bump.
It’s worth revisiting some of the reasons why the APA leadership decided several months ago that despite the inherent difficulties, a merger with US Airways represents the best path to a reinvigorated American Airlines and, by extension, a brighter future for us all. With the mergers of Delta-Northwest and United-Continental, American Airlines now stands at a distant third (and, by some measures, fourth in the U.S. industry) in terms of our revenue base and route network. A merger with US Airways is essential for both carriers and represents the quickest way to recapture the critical mass essential to competing effectively with those two carriers.
We have seen a model for a successfully arbitrated seniority integration at Delta-Northwest using fences and a ratio methodology based on a percentile seniority list ranking. Also, if an American Airlines-US Airways seniority integration were to be arbitrated, our attorneys have indicated that the ongoing seniority dispute between “West” and “East” at US Airways would be settled as part of the process and should not have any negative impact on an arbitrator’s decision under the McCaskill-Bond statute.
Many analysts believe that American Airlines finds itself in its present predicament because of an excessively cautious approach to consolidation during the past several years. Instead of vigorously pursuing Northwest Airlines as a remedy to American Airlines’ deficiencies in the Asian network, they sat on the sidelines as the rest of the industry flew by. How much longer should we wait before deciding that something needs to happen to fix American Airlines’ revenue and network disparities? Merging within bankruptcy also affords APA opportunities to “re-attack” sooner rather than later to capture additional contractual value in the form of a transition agreement/MOU for our members. On the other hand, a “wait and see” approach would ensure that American Airlines exits Chapter 11 restructuring as an independent carrier with our newly ratified contract. At that point we would have no mechanism for making any near-term contractual improvements, and little ability to influence the management structure or strategic direction of the corporation.
If the four parties agree to an MOU/transition agreement, we would proceed to the next phase of the process, which would involve the creditors assessing the financial benefits of a merger. If a merger meets with their approval, a series of additional steps would have to occur before a merger is approved and the new company exits restructuring, including consideration by the two companies’ boards of directors; antitrust review by the federal government; and approval of a plan of reorganization by the Unsecured Creditors’ Committee and the bankruptcy court.
Upon exit from restructuring, an application for single-employer status with the National Mediation Board must be made, which would take approximately six months. Once single-employer status is declared, we would go through a process to determine the bargaining agent for the pilots. After that we would begin negotiating a joint collective bargaining agreement (JCBA), which would focus primarily on reconciling and integrating the US Airways pilots into the American Airlines operation. This JCBA must be completed within 24 months of a plan of reorganization being approved. If not, it would be submitted to binding arbitration for any remaining open items. Seniority integration negotiations would then commence. In the interim, we would operate in accordance with the protections stipulated by the MOU, including fences and provisions to ensure that pilots on the American Airlines seniority list would operate any aircraft delivered as part of the previously announced aircraft orders.
Fellow pilots, we understand your keen interest in the ongoing MOU negotiations, and we will continue to provide updates as developments warrant.
Thank you for remaining engaged in determining our collective futures.
In unity,
Keith Wilson
APA President
Fellow pilots,
The APA Board of Directors reconvened today at 9 a.m. at union headquarters as part of the ongoing four-party negotiations between American Airlines and US Airways management, APA and the US Airline Pilots Association (USAPA) on behalf of US Airways’ pilots.
These negotiations are aimed at reaching a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU), or interim agreement, to address each pilot group’s respective concerns if the two carriers proceed to merge. The MOU would serve as the transition agreement and would also include improvements to our newly ratified collective bargaining agreement.
Some have suggested that the only way APA should “agree” to a merger is to first negotiate an integrated seniority list with USAPA. Major corporate mergers involving represented employee groups don’t work that way. No legal mechanism exists that would allow union-represented employees to interfere with a major transaction such as a merger. With McCaskill-Bond the law of the land, unless management predicates a merger on an integrated seniority list—much as we saw at Southwest in their acquisition of Air Tran–we are left to pick up the pieces after the merger has occurred.
While APA’s institutional position has consistently been one of support for a merger between the two carriers within bankruptcy, support for a merger at this juncture is not unanimous within the union. Likewise, AMR management has not embraced the concept of expediting a merger before restructuring concludes and clearly wants to retain control of the corporation and consider a merger on their terms following exit from bankruptcy. Keep in mind that AMR management has executed four different mergers—beginning with Trans Caribbean and ending with TWA—while completely disregarding the impact on our pilots’ seniority. I doubt that pilot seniority is anywhere near the top of their concerns right now. Likewise, I doubt that pilot seniority would be a key consideration if they were to execute a merger with US Airways, JetBlue or any other carrier following an independent exit from bankruptcy.
Instead, what we’re seeing is likely a deliberate attempt to sew fear amongst our pilots in an effort to derail consensual merger talks. A small group of pilots, with assistance from AMR management and a former CEO, has been advancing the notion that an integrated list should be a precondition to any further consideration of a merger. Their motives are crystal clear: hold on to the reins of power and control any merger on their terms. To be clear, fundamental capital transactions such as a merger involve a large number of parties. By virtue of the 13.5 percent equity stake we now hold as part of our ratified agreement, APA can exert influence over various aspects of a merger as a major stakeholder in AMR. However, we don’t have the ability to stop the clock and make everyone else wait while we sort through all of the issues associated with an integrated seniority list. To suggest otherwise is disingenuous, and simply ignorant of the law and the facts.
Our advisers have indicated that if we do not finalize an MOU in the very near future, in all likelihood there will be no merger before American Airlines exits restructuring. An MOU specifying wages and working conditions for the pilots, along with interim seniority protection in the form of fences, would enable creditors to identify synergies that would result from a merger of the two carriers. Absent an MOU, the financial benefits of a merger would remain unclear.
We all understand that seniority is extremely important to our careers. Of course, your seniority number is irrevocably tied to the airline you work for, so it’s likewise critical for your employer to be able to compete and thrive. The analysts who study our industry and make judgments about which airlines are best positioned in the marketplace have been virtually unanimous in the view that a merger with US Airways represents the best way to address our airline’s current deficiencies. Make no mistake—a merger of some sort is inevitable. The questions before us: Who do you want at the helm and do you want the ability to have some control over the process? In a post-bankruptcy merger, we would have little ability to influence any potential leadership changes at American Airlines and would represent nothing more than a speed bump.
It’s worth revisiting some of the reasons why the APA leadership decided several months ago that despite the inherent difficulties, a merger with US Airways represents the best path to a reinvigorated American Airlines and, by extension, a brighter future for us all. With the mergers of Delta-Northwest and United-Continental, American Airlines now stands at a distant third (and, by some measures, fourth in the U.S. industry) in terms of our revenue base and route network. A merger with US Airways is essential for both carriers and represents the quickest way to recapture the critical mass essential to competing effectively with those two carriers.
We have seen a model for a successfully arbitrated seniority integration at Delta-Northwest using fences and a ratio methodology based on a percentile seniority list ranking. Also, if an American Airlines-US Airways seniority integration were to be arbitrated, our attorneys have indicated that the ongoing seniority dispute between “West” and “East” at US Airways would be settled as part of the process and should not have any negative impact on an arbitrator’s decision under the McCaskill-Bond statute.
Many analysts believe that American Airlines finds itself in its present predicament because of an excessively cautious approach to consolidation during the past several years. Instead of vigorously pursuing Northwest Airlines as a remedy to American Airlines’ deficiencies in the Asian network, they sat on the sidelines as the rest of the industry flew by. How much longer should we wait before deciding that something needs to happen to fix American Airlines’ revenue and network disparities? Merging within bankruptcy also affords APA opportunities to “re-attack” sooner rather than later to capture additional contractual value in the form of a transition agreement/MOU for our members. On the other hand, a “wait and see” approach would ensure that American Airlines exits Chapter 11 restructuring as an independent carrier with our newly ratified contract. At that point we would have no mechanism for making any near-term contractual improvements, and little ability to influence the management structure or strategic direction of the corporation.
If the four parties agree to an MOU/transition agreement, we would proceed to the next phase of the process, which would involve the creditors assessing the financial benefits of a merger. If a merger meets with their approval, a series of additional steps would have to occur before a merger is approved and the new company exits restructuring, including consideration by the two companies’ boards of directors; antitrust review by the federal government; and approval of a plan of reorganization by the Unsecured Creditors’ Committee and the bankruptcy court.
Upon exit from restructuring, an application for single-employer status with the National Mediation Board must be made, which would take approximately six months. Once single-employer status is declared, we would go through a process to determine the bargaining agent for the pilots. After that we would begin negotiating a joint collective bargaining agreement (JCBA), which would focus primarily on reconciling and integrating the US Airways pilots into the American Airlines operation. This JCBA must be completed within 24 months of a plan of reorganization being approved. If not, it would be submitted to binding arbitration for any remaining open items. Seniority integration negotiations would then commence. In the interim, we would operate in accordance with the protections stipulated by the MOU, including fences and provisions to ensure that pilots on the American Airlines seniority list would operate any aircraft delivered as part of the previously announced aircraft orders.
Fellow pilots, we understand your keen interest in the ongoing MOU negotiations, and we will continue to provide updates as developments warrant.
Thank you for remaining engaged in determining our collective futures.
In unity,
Keith Wilson
APA President
#87
Unelected company shill Keith Wilson wrote "It’s worth revisiting some of the reasons why the APA leadership decided several months ago that despite the inherent difficulties"
Should have read "your APA leadership, without polling or asking the membership in any way, decided to pursue a merger with US Airways. Sure most of the membership hates the idea, but, too late. In our arrogance, we not only pursued the deal, we signed and executed a legal binding contract to support Doug Parker and make sure the membership cannot overturn this idiotic decision. We are fixated on getting revenge and getting rid of Tom Horton. Sure, it may destroy your seniority and your career, but the reward is oh so sweet. After you lose your home, cars, and your wife divorces you and takes the kids, you will be able to brag to your friends that you stuck it to the man. Oh by the way we will be increasing dues .5% next week. Merry Christmas."
Should have read "your APA leadership, without polling or asking the membership in any way, decided to pursue a merger with US Airways. Sure most of the membership hates the idea, but, too late. In our arrogance, we not only pursued the deal, we signed and executed a legal binding contract to support Doug Parker and make sure the membership cannot overturn this idiotic decision. We are fixated on getting revenge and getting rid of Tom Horton. Sure, it may destroy your seniority and your career, but the reward is oh so sweet. After you lose your home, cars, and your wife divorces you and takes the kids, you will be able to brag to your friends that you stuck it to the man. Oh by the way we will be increasing dues .5% next week. Merry Christmas."
#88
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 5,299
Likes: 0
From: A320 Capt
I think the seniority has affected our operation in someways, but US Airways is running a pretty good operation and is solidly profitable. The margin of profitability is increased by our lousy contract, but not enough that it would disappear with industry standard.
Adding US would put AA on an even footing with DL and UA. DL is not sitting still waiting on anyone right now. They are the 800lb gorilla and are moving on and trying new things like the refinery and the Virgin stake. I think they are tops in performance rankings. UA has been slow to finish the merger and is suffering for it, but I don't think it will be long before you see a turn around there. #3 major network carrier behind these guys will not be a good view. They won't be going after jetBlue or Spirit's share......
I believe a AA/US merger would take care of the east/west fight and should be one of the lesser concerns for AA and it's pilots.
#89
Unelected company shill Keith Wilson wrote "It’s worth revisiting some of the reasons why the APA leadership decided several months ago that despite the inherent difficulties"
Should have read "your APA leadership, without polling or asking the membership in any way, decided to pursue a merger with US Airways. Sure most of the membership hates the idea, but, too late. In our arrogance, we not only pursued the deal, we signed and executed a legal binding contract to support Doug Parker and make sure the membership cannot overturn this idiotic decision. We are fixated on getting revenge and getting rid of Tom Horton. Sure, it may destroy your seniority and your career, but the reward is oh so sweet. After you lose your home, cars, and your wife divorces you and takes the kids, you will be able to brag to your friends that you stuck it to the man. Oh by the way we will be increasing dues .5% next week. Merry Christmas."
Should have read "your APA leadership, without polling or asking the membership in any way, decided to pursue a merger with US Airways. Sure most of the membership hates the idea, but, too late. In our arrogance, we not only pursued the deal, we signed and executed a legal binding contract to support Doug Parker and make sure the membership cannot overturn this idiotic decision. We are fixated on getting revenge and getting rid of Tom Horton. Sure, it may destroy your seniority and your career, but the reward is oh so sweet. After you lose your home, cars, and your wife divorces you and takes the kids, you will be able to brag to your friends that you stuck it to the man. Oh by the way we will be increasing dues .5% next week. Merry Christmas."
Ask the wife and kids how THEY feel about this...
#90
Unelected company shill Keith Wilson wrote "It’s worth revisiting some of the reasons why the APA leadership decided several months ago that despite the inherent difficulties"
Should have read "your APA leadership, without polling or asking the membership in any way, decided to pursue a merger with US Airways. Sure most of the membership hates the idea, but, too late. In our arrogance, we not only pursued the deal, we signed and executed a legal binding contract to support Doug Parker and make sure the membership cannot overturn this idiotic decision. We are fixated on getting revenge and getting rid of Tom Horton. Sure, it may destroy your seniority and your career, but the reward is oh so sweet. After you lose your home, cars, and your wife divorces you and takes the kids, you will be able to brag to your friends that you stuck it to the man. Oh by the way we will be increasing dues .5% next week. Merry Christmas."
Should have read "your APA leadership, without polling or asking the membership in any way, decided to pursue a merger with US Airways. Sure most of the membership hates the idea, but, too late. In our arrogance, we not only pursued the deal, we signed and executed a legal binding contract to support Doug Parker and make sure the membership cannot overturn this idiotic decision. We are fixated on getting revenge and getting rid of Tom Horton. Sure, it may destroy your seniority and your career, but the reward is oh so sweet. After you lose your home, cars, and your wife divorces you and takes the kids, you will be able to brag to your friends that you stuck it to the man. Oh by the way we will be increasing dues .5% next week. Merry Christmas."

I'm pretty sure Cactiboss belongs in this category too.
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