Latest UsAir out of touch SLI ideas
12-04-2013, 11:58 AM
#21
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2013
Posts: 72
Originally Posted by AceOnTheRiver
Heard from a friend of mine that had a junior UsAir pilot on the jumpseat that they are hoping to re-work the AA seniority list and move the Eagle pilots down on the list since they weren't real major pilots for all of their AA seniority. This 5 year UsAir guy evidently has little respect for former Eagle pilots on the AA list and thinks he should be senior to all of them that have less then 5 years of real airline pilot flying. I must admit I had a good laugh at the whole seniority grab scheme and I can see what the AWA guys have been dealing with. If these guys are already coming up with seniority grab schemes then we might as well not worry about negotiating a mutual lists since they are delusional.
What seniority grab would this be?
Thanks for the info.
12-04-2013, 12:05 PM
#22
Flies With The Hat On
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: Right of the Left Seat
Posts: 1,339
Originally Posted by AceOnTheRiver
Heard from a friend of mine that had a junior UsAir pilot on the jumpseat that they are hoping to re-work the AA seniority list and move the Eagle pilots down on the list since they weren't real major pilots for all of their AA seniority. This 5 year UsAir guy evidently has little respect for former Eagle pilots on the AA list and thinks he should be senior to all of them that have less then 5 years of real airline pilot flying. I must admit I had a good laugh at the whole seniority grab scheme and I can see what the AWA guys have been dealing with. If these guys are already coming up with seniority grab schemes then we might as well not worry about negotiating a mutual lists since they are delusional.
Lets suppose your story is true. Was this 5 year Airways pilot ever furloughed? What was his actual time of service on property? Eagle pilots have an incentive to demonstrate their Supplement W/Letter 3 privileges against the service of pilots active on the date the merger was announced—this is understandable.
But, the arbitrators may capture the standalone merger expectations of eagle pilots who were all off property at the time off the merger announcement.
Horton's stand alone plan publicly called for an additional 400 pilot furlough.
Originally Posted by eaglefly
LOL !!!!
That idiot obviously knows nothing about Supplement W/Letter 3 and is just hoping to use HIS seniority as a benchmark for a grab. It wouldn't surprise me to see USAPA try this though. It would be exactly something they would do. I've heard their supporters rationalize just about anything and everything on this forum so far.
Interesting concept though. If one side can propose to cherry pick pilots out of their relative seniority, then the other side could too. I could think of all kinds of benchmarks myself to mangle the non-AA list(s) in the SLI, many of which could get me more seniority than I'd lose under that jumpseat idiots desires.
It another sad reality that this "merger" may very well have the most fragmented pilot group in the industry.
That idiot obviously knows nothing about Supplement W/Letter 3 and is just hoping to use HIS seniority as a benchmark for a grab. It wouldn't surprise me to see USAPA try this though. It would be exactly something they would do. I've heard their supporters rationalize just about anything and everything on this forum so far.
Interesting concept though. If one side can propose to cherry pick pilots out of their relative seniority, then the other side could too. I could think of all kinds of benchmarks myself to mangle the non-AA list(s) in the SLI, many of which could get me more seniority than I'd lose under that jumpseat idiots desires.
It another sad reality that this "merger" may very well have the most fragmented pilot group in the industry.
This seems to be a conversation about artificial verses actual time on property.
eaglefly, how do you feel Supplement W/Letter 3 give eagle pilots an distinctive advantage in this meger when XJT pilots failed to secure seniority credits for their time served off property?
12-04-2013, 12:11 PM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,293
Originally Posted by AceOnTheRiver
This 5 year UsAir guy............. I can see what the AWA guys have been dealing with.
12-04-2013, 12:11 PM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,967
Originally Posted by flybywire44
Supposing this story is true, was this 5 year airways guy ever furloughed? What was his actual time of service on property? Eagle pilots have an incentive to demonstrate their Supplement W/Letter 3 privileges against the service of pilots active on the date the merger was announced—this is understandable.
But, the arbitrators may capture the standalone merger expectations of eagle pilots who were all off property at the time off the merger announcement.
Horton's stand alone plan publicly called for an additional 400 pilot furlough.
But, the arbitrators may capture the standalone merger expectations of eagle pilots who were all off property at the time off the merger announcement.
Horton's stand alone plan publicly called for an additional 400 pilot furlough.
Straight DOH with no fences.......................................Stric t relative position of all pilots on any list, with HUGE Fences
It will be somewhere in between those two.
12-04-2013, 12:20 PM
#25
Flies With The Hat On
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: Right of the Left Seat
Posts: 1,339
Originally Posted by PurpleTurtle
Straight DOH with no fences.......................................Stric t relative position of all pilots on any list, with HUGE Fences
It will be somewhere in between those two.
It will be somewhere in between those two.
Fences hurt commuters the most and the company second.
USAPA will continue to pursue DOH. They have no legal choice here and APA knows this. Both APA and USAPA are walking a tight DFR rope regarding the Nicolau (thanks eaglefly). We should not all take this DOH stuff too seriously!!!!! The DOH mantra is a smoke and mirrors front against AOL!!!
I believe APA and USAPA are working back room agreements irrespective of DOH.
Lets try to adopt a positive outlook regarding this merger.
Cheers.
Last edited by flybywire44; 12-04-2013 at 12:46 PM.
12-04-2013, 12:26 PM
#26
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Originally Posted by flybywire44
eaglefly, how do you feel Supplement W, Letter 3 give eagle pilots an distinctive advantage over the XJT pilots who attempted to secure seniority credits in the UAL merger?
Eagle pilots who came to AA via that mechanism have anywhere from 14 years to a few months on property. As I stated, if USAPA can advocate readjusting the other airlines relative seniority, so could APA or perhaps Eagle flows seek to readjust your seniority list making some you junior to pilots you were previously senior to. That's a dangerous door to open if you ask me, but once someone opens it, anyone should be able to seek the ability to walk through it.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Think of it though - an end result where many pilots are not just junior to X pilot of the other carrier for Y reason, but now junior to a pilot you were formerly senior to at your own carrier !
Only USAPA would be stupid enough to open that door and again, it wouldn't surprise me if they did.
12-04-2013, 12:32 PM
#27
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Originally Posted by PurpleTurtle
Straight DOH with no fences.......................................Stric t relative position of all pilots on any list, with HUGE Fences
It will be somewhere in between those two.
It will be somewhere in between those two.
That would be at least a non-relative position between lists favoring AA pilots due to career expectations and HUGE fences. Then yes, it would be somewhere in between that wide gulf.
12-04-2013, 12:51 PM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,967
Originally Posted by eaglefly
Your shrinking the "box" on the AA side to maximize your benefit. If your going to use maximum benefit for U pilots, that being straight DOH with no fences, then use the best outcome for AA pilots for a complete opposite.
That would be at least a non-relative position between lists favoring AA pilots due to career expectations and HUGE fences. Then yes, it would be somewhere in between that wide gulf.
That would be at least a non-relative position between lists favoring AA pilots due to career expectations and HUGE fences. Then yes, it would be somewhere in between that wide gulf.
Whatever. Make the target as big as ya want. Make it four point instead of two.
12-04-2013, 12:54 PM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,967
Originally Posted by flybywire44
Hey Purp, i think we should individually read the DAL and UAL SLI arbitrations. Neither had DOH and neither had huge fences, but there were longevity credits.
Fences hurt commuters the most and the company second.
USAPA will continue to pursue DOH. They have no legal choice here and APA knows this. Both APA and USAPA are walking a tight DFR rope regarding the Nicolau (thanks eaglefly). We should not all take this DOH stuff too seriously!!!!! The DOH mantra is a smoke and mirrors front against AOL!!!
I believe APA and USAPA are working back room agreements irrespective of DOH.
Lets try to adopt a positive outlook regarding this merger.
Cheers.
Fences hurt commuters the most and the company second.
USAPA will continue to pursue DOH. They have no legal choice here and APA knows this. Both APA and USAPA are walking a tight DFR rope regarding the Nicolau (thanks eaglefly). We should not all take this DOH stuff too seriously!!!!! The DOH mantra is a smoke and mirrors front against AOL!!!
I believe APA and USAPA are working back room agreements irrespective of DOH.
Lets try to adopt a positive outlook regarding this merger.
Cheers.
12-04-2013, 12:57 PM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,967
Originally Posted by eaglefly
No way I could answer that as I have no idea how that flow through mechanism was contractually structured. I do believe it was completely different from Supplement W/Letter 3. That contractual supplement/LOA has been the subject of various arbitrations including extensive exposure by both Nicolau (why can't anyone spell his name correctly ?) and Arbitrator Bloch who upheld not only Eagle flows rights to flow, but their relative seniority. As far as Eagle flows on property prior to MOU, if the APA can't cherry pick them out of their relative seniority, then I strongly doubt USAPA can. The AA list will be presented in current relative seniority and the only way to alter that is if USAPA does in fact attempt what 3rd lister jumpseat idiot is advocating if that story is true.
Eagle pilots who came to AA via that mechanism have anywhere from 14 years to a few months on property. As I stated, if USAPA can advocate readjusting the other airlines relative seniority, so could APA or perhaps Eagle flows seek to readjust your seniority list making some you junior to pilots you were previously senior to. That's a dangerous door to open if you ask me, but once someone opens it, anyone should be able to seek the ability to walk through it.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Think of it though - an end result where many pilots are not just junior to X pilot of the other carrier for Y reason, but now junior to a pilot you were formerly senior to at your own carrier !
Only USAPA would be stupid enough to open that door and again, it wouldn't surprise me if they did.
Eagle pilots who came to AA via that mechanism have anywhere from 14 years to a few months on property. As I stated, if USAPA can advocate readjusting the other airlines relative seniority, so could APA or perhaps Eagle flows seek to readjust your seniority list making some you junior to pilots you were previously senior to. That's a dangerous door to open if you ask me, but once someone opens it, anyone should be able to seek the ability to walk through it.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Think of it though - an end result where many pilots are not just junior to X pilot of the other carrier for Y reason, but now junior to a pilot you were formerly senior to at your own carrier !
Only USAPA would be stupid enough to open that door and again, it wouldn't surprise me if they did.
The Red bolded part is exactly what Nicolau did.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
