For a 3 year FO to make $450k it would require them working every single day of the year. 365 days straight. That would also require that open time trips be available at that seniority level that would fill in every single day of the year.

At year 3 pay rates(and I even assumed the year 3 pay rates that would be in effect 3 years from now at DOS+3) it would require about 2559 hours of pay to make $450k. That’s 213.25 hours a month. 17 work days is worth 82.28 hours of pay if the trip starts at 0000Z on day 1 and ends at 2359Z on day 17. More realistic for a 17 day trip is about 75-77 hours of pay. Months with training will most likely be 64 hours for 17 days. Open time pays 4.84 hours a day CRT plus 2 hours the first day, 4 hours the second, and 6 hours day 3 and on in a month.

Typical HR BS. It’s not just abnormal it’s impossible.

 

82.2 hours is definitely NOT average for a 767 FO. Looking at the latest bid package, most 76FO hard lines are in the 64-72 hour range with a few outliers on both ends and reserve lines are in the 74-78 hour range.

82.2 hours would be a trip that starts at 0000Z on day 1 and ends at 2359Z on day 17. We don’t have trips like that.

 

For what it’s worth.. in 2022 I’ll be between a 6-7 year captain on the 767. I’m hoping to make $200k.

 

As some would say: oof

Thanks for clearing that all up.

 

They include per diem and other perks to that number, let's play with it a bit.

Year 3 747 FO flying in/out of china makes 297/hr. Outbase guarantee is 21k, 90 hours of flying in/out of China, HKG and so on will pay what, 11500 over guarantee? Add 2000 of per diem, and you are getting 35k that month as a year 3 FO. Thats 420k/year. For working 365 days, and assuming COVID pay continues. And you have no friends, or a very expensive ex-wife, likely a few of them.

400k is not "impossible" but it is highly unrealistic.

 

Nobody flies only Art 33 flights. A few legs here and there…not every single one and certainly not 90 hours worth.

You’re basing this on working every day of the month and that China/HKG will remain Art 33. That is not contractual. The company can cancel those at any time with 48 hours notice and 175% pay is gone for those countries(unless CDC level 4 or declared a hostile area).

This scenario assumes you never take vacation and you don’t have to go to training for an entire year. It also puts you over the legal limit of flight time of 1,000 hours in 12 calendar months.

Per diem should never be considered as part of pay.

You’re stacking everything for you and still not getting to the mythical $450k. As I stated originally….impossible.

 

I'm doing around 50 hours of article 33 this month. ANC-China-ICN, ICN-China-ANC. That's almost 30 hours already. 3 of those trips would get you to 90 hours. Which is not outside the realm of possibilities if you outbase in ICN. I'm on my second one of those this month.

But I agree, I don't know how to get to 450k, I was just playing with the numbers to see what it would require. And as I said as a conclusion, 400k is not "impossible" but it's unrealistic. 420k would be the absolute best case scenario and really pretty much impossible to achieve in real world. So just to be clear, I wasn't defending the company claims, I was just seeing how far you could go.

 

Regarding JFK without discussing seniority, it’s not what it used to be where most trips were DH work Day 1, rarely operating from JFK. That has disappeared significantly in comparison/contrast to many moons ago. It was a good deal not losing any time off. Just flew with a long time friend here based out of JFK and he mentioned it hasn’t gone back to the start with DH being the majority of lines. It’s from the standpoint of us being quite senior FO’s hunting for opportunities. Things change, seasons change, contracts change so it could flip, its ACMI after all.

*Of course he may not want me to bid to JFK so I will take another look tomorrow night. I trust him, but just how little DH from the start is offered out of curiosity? - and anyone can update what they see as well. Never looked at the Capt bids.

 

You all have hit the highlights, bonuses, issues, etc. I just fly my line change or no change for the most part. This month with the CBA implementations bit by bit has been rather beneficial. Original China run displaced and $ accrued for it, line added to cover displacement also additional China run added. That being said, at least 20 hrs close to 100hrs just flowing along not too strenuous. 175% does help quite a bit, I mean a lot. Doing actual math shown by block: ICN to WUX or PVG is 2hrs, then back to ANC is 9hrs so 11 hrs total either way. ICN-HKG-ANC is 4hrs+9.45 call it 14hrs… Granted the SYD thru China was considerable (haven’t done SYD for a long time). With some taxi congestion, ATC flow, WX, etc., some time is added but it will be less than 40 for 3 calculated runs above. Art. 33 INC-HKG-ANC on a routine basis is not impossible, but highly improbable YRMV. I will say with the implementations it has forced my lines to be more efficient. Personally could go either way as I enjoy my time off (not as much right now due to viral debacle), but I can totally see the benefits and most lean towards the work me to death and show me the $. I live to the guarantee, the rest is gravy and now it’s a second helping as long as the bonus cheddar lasts.

* Just Me: If all three Art 33 lines were flown above included in my normal line (Not my case) and using 100hr pure flight time with additional Art 33 above it would be 300K if done for 12 months (not normally lines I pick up based on wanted days off), but training twice using bid conflict and not using vaca drops it down to 275K. Used my rates as a senior FO well beyond 3 years to show 450k isn’t likely unless I out base and did over 5 $ runs above at least just to break 400K. Need to get the HKG run 6 times every month, out base every month no training conflict, no vaca conflict to break 450K - I would like to live a bit longer. ***Guarantee to time out anyway so impossible for myself… Apologies, I was just curious.

*74 Capt, different story of course.

 

Hard to say what the best program is because it varies on your circumstances. Living in a major hub I would request flights on that airline. Used to get some pushback that brand X is 50 dollars cheaper but haven’t heard that in several years. Have held upper level status the last few years, upgrade if available and free checked bags which I have pointed would save the checked bag fees when they suggest a different airline. Never got into the credit card game as I prefer my none airline card. Hotels are a different story. Atlas gets rooms in many locations at a discounted rate. Some hotels will not give points for discounted rooms. They’ll have a deal for say 100 nights a month at discount rate. I’ve seen cases when a crew checks in and one pilot is the hundredth night that month so no points. The pilot checking in after them is at the regular rate and gets points.

You are on your own to get to your US gateway for company travel to your base. That being said, some pilots have picked gateways and bases with expensive tickets between the two and been able to point out to the company that a ticket from a foreign location would be cheaper. Just looking at tickets SYD to LAX they’re running around a thousand dollars for the beginning of December so not sure you could find a city pair in the US that’s more than that.