[QUOTE=chip1;1708745]+1, when many of us hired in the last 4 years joined atlas we thought it was a step up thinking bigger equipment meant stronger contract, QOL, stronger independent minded union with its eye on gaining not what are we willing to give up mindset. IF the current union is questioning what we should give up in a time like this, then that pretty much explains my point about misguided. The ball is in our court yet we still maintain the "what are we willing to give up attitude"!!!????

I'm tired of the backdoor deals, the favors, the you scratch a my back i'll scratch yours, the old way of doing things "the exclusive club", and the conflicts of special interest while not taking care of the collective good of all. THis is what i learned in the military but that doesn't have any real bearing to everyone else. As far as union experience i wouldn't want to be associated or put my name/time yet into a place like this until it effectively served all membership. FYI, I served at a regional for 3 years as military liason. But you see none of that matters and its sad that someone has to come out and try to make it seem like we're headed in the right direction for the average noncheck airman/school house joe. Like others have said it'd been nice to know beforehand.

This is for the guy who isn't here yet and not sitting on top, its for the guy who will spend many of his days off for the next several years away from family commuting to ANC explaining why atlas was the "best" choice.

LOAs that have done NOTHING for the group as a whole.

If you think, at any point, we are not in negotiations, YOU are part of the problem.

[QUOTE=C5nwhaleguy;1708785] What has been given up? I guess I don't see that or understand the reference. Can you help me understand? How is that attitude maintained? Has the union given up on the membership? Have they stopped working for the crewmembers?

can you explain some of the deals you are talking about? Who is scratchin the unions back and how - what deals? Be honest here Mike because your credibility is on the line. You have made a bunch of accusations and innuendo so hopefully you have some real data to back it up. Some real examples. In the military I served in we learned to deal with fact, not with rumor, innuendo, and baseless accusations.

Which direction do you think we are headed? And what would you do to change that direction. In the military I served in, if you went to the Wing Commander with a problem, you better have a solution ready as well. So two questions

1. What is the problem? The real problem not just the rumor and innuendo

2. What is the solution? The real solution. We all get that you want to "toss the current leadership." Fine. So explain to us what YOU would do differently. How would you accomplish it?

Same question to you. What are we in negotiations for? What are we "giving up" in those negotiations? What is the union stance? Have they really given anything up? Did we lose money or hours? Did the time away from home increase? It takes two parties to negotiate.

The union leadership can blab all it wants but unless the company is blabbing back the negotiation is not taking place.

If there are LOAs that have done NOTHING for the group as a whole then why were they voted in? An LOA still gets a vote by the crewmembers right? It is the union leaders attempt to engage the crewmembers. A NO vote actually gives the leaders the power to go back to the company and ask for more. Your mention of an LOA that does nothing points the finger at the crewmembers, not the leadership or LOA negotiators.

Or perhaps you do not understand the process? As crewmembers we empower the leadership by voting no on an LOA or a CBA TA!

During every roadshow for our previous CBAs I asked the negotiators and MEC members "are you voting for this LOA?" Surprisingly their answer was often no. I voted likewise.

Part of negotiation is public support for what you have negotiated. It is a tactic to get more from the company 'Well Mr Cato - we will come out an support this LOA or TA this CBA if you give us a few more dollars an hour" all the while knowing (or hoping) that the crewmembers vote it down. It is a TACTIC, not a position. As crewmembers we need to be smarter than this. we need to understand the process and our role in the process. Your comment on the LOA shows that perhaps you do not understand that.

Gee, this bully message board tactic looks awfully familiar...

If you're going to keep using somebodies name on an anonymous web board then sign your own at the bottom. That or go back to yelling at people on the union board.

If you talk to the guys working in the training center (I'm not one), yes, the current leadership is pushing to lower their income by removing their ability to VX for open time. They are line pilots like the rest of us, and right now they're fuming mad that their 1.56% is going toward a grievance meant to restrict their pay.

Of course, that only applies to our pilots who work in Miami and receive the 72 hour min with the 10% override. What about our line check airmen, who also receive training overrides?

Exempt from the grievance.

Things that make you say "Hmmmm."

Hi Whale-

I am a new hire. Completed training in MIA and waiting for IOE. I was a voting member of my previous airlines MEC and dealt with every issue you could imagine from sick time issues to merging (or attempting to) two airlines. I spent a little over seven years there.

I want to elaborate a little on the constant negotiations. The union, Exco and negotiating team, is always negotiating. The company will come and say what do you think about XYZ and the union has to meet and speak in the interest of the pilot group (or so we hope). Not everything that the union approaches the company about or visa versa comes out to pilot vote or is even really considered by the union but you have to entertain everything. I am certain talks about the instructors are always ongoing as are crew meals and many other things. Beyond that either party can ask to enter into new contract negotiations but is usually most effective with the company realizes the situation be it any airline.

So in my opinion, yes we are always in negotiations. This is why if we want more pay for working extra days then we need to not pick them up now, same goes for outbasing. Every time we take a hotel we shouldn't or a crew meal we shouldn't if the company is smart they mark it down so that when we are talking specific things in the future they can say well we only got 30 complaints over the last so many days on a specific issue. I am not saying do or don't do something but that if we want change it starts with us, the line pilots. The Exco, stewards, negotiating committee work for US!...

I don't know enough about the current Exco or other guys running but from initial things I have heard (if true) there are guys that really shouldn't be in leadership positions from both groups.

Also for what it is worth I am 30 and would like to make this my final airline. That being said I will not stay here if the next contract doesn't have work rules and pay that is closer to industry standard (what that will be in a year or more who knows). Not to mention retirement, sick time and training pay BS. No one should be penalized for any of those things on their paycheck.

V/R-

Nick

Agreed, thank you 744driver!

If you must, there is the Other Atlas Thread that potential interested pilots can go to get another view point but this page really should stay on point, please.

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/ch...-thread-7.html

On the contrary, I agree with others that this discussion is good info for prospective hires.