Southern Air Interview
05-03-2015 | 11:05 AM
#341
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 369
Likes: 0
As long as young pilots emerge from flight schools with flying licenses in their pockets, SA and the like will have pilots to fly the jets. As long as SA and they're ilk have sufficient Capt's to fly with these young guys and gals, the jets will continue to fly. There's nothing to stop this process, unless you can convince people to voluntarily stay away. The young guys are looking well beyond the bad pay at the supplemental's. The guys in the left seats make enough to be satisfied to the extent they don't leave.
I would suggest that the level of negativity toward SA posted here is meant to chase away potential new hires as they stand in the way of any improvements for the pilot trying to make a career there. And, nobody wants to make a career at an airline with a revolving door. I don't either.
In 1988 I was paid $75/hr as an F/O in a DC-8 freighter with a 70hr guarantee. How can this be, especially considering the alleged pilot shortage?....Not in the US anyway.
By the way, SA had no trouble filling the two most recent 777 classes so how can anyone expect anything to change. Supply and demand...
I would suggest that the level of negativity toward SA posted here is meant to chase away potential new hires as they stand in the way of any improvements for the pilot trying to make a career there. And, nobody wants to make a career at an airline with a revolving door. I don't either.
In 1988 I was paid $75/hr as an F/O in a DC-8 freighter with a 70hr guarantee. How can this be, especially considering the alleged pilot shortage?....Not in the US anyway.
By the way, SA had no trouble filling the two most recent 777 classes so how can anyone expect anything to change. Supply and demand...
There will never be a shortage of bright eyed pilots with dreams of flying a 777 around the world.
05-03-2015 | 03:57 PM
#342
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,183
Likes: 0
From: 777, sofa
Yep, you guys are right.
Southern is great.
No one has any complaints about the company. There is no problem here. Everything will always continue just as it always has.
SAI parked an airplane and subcontracted the flying to NAC just to share the bounty, not because conditions are so bad they can't staff the airline.
It is perfectly fine for a FedEx pilot to make twice what we do, doing the same job, on the same plane, flying the same cargo, to the same places, creating the same revenue.
They deserve it, but we do not.
We should all just move on if we aren't one of the 50 777 Captains at SAI. Get some fresh meat in here that isn't tired of abuse yet. Youngsters who think things will get better on the next contract if they just work hard.
Keep perpetuating wage stagnation at ACMI carriers. Keep downward pressure on FedEx and UPS pilot wages. Because Yellow, Brown, and Purple still compete for revenue, and Yellow has an advantage over their peers, namely discounted labor compensation rates.
Actually we should all just give up any hope of anything ever getting any better. Because that would take a little bit of solidarity. And we are all individual independent contractors here, willing to undercut each other for momentary gain, even in the face of history showing that ultimately leads to long term loss.
Learned helplessness is a behavior in which an organism forced to endure aversive, painful or otherwise unpleasant stimuli, becomes unable or unwilling to avoid subsequent encounters with those stimuli, even if they are escapable. Presumably, the organism has learned that it cannot control the situation and therefore does not take action to avoid the negative stimulus.[1]
Learned helplessness theory is the view that clinical depression and related mental illnesses may result from a perceived absence of control over the outcome of a situation.[2] Organisms that have been ineffective and less sensitive in determining the consequences of their behavior are defined as having acquired learned helplessness.[3]
...
Cognitive scientist and usability engineer Donald Norman used learned helplessness to explain why people blame themselves when they have a difficult time using simple objects in their environment.[39]
The US sociologist Harrison White has suggested in his book Identity and Control that the notion of learned helplessness can be extended beyond psychology into the realm of social action. When a culture or political identity fails to achieve desired goals, perceptions of collective ability suffer.
Southern is great.
No one has any complaints about the company. There is no problem here. Everything will always continue just as it always has.
SAI parked an airplane and subcontracted the flying to NAC just to share the bounty, not because conditions are so bad they can't staff the airline.
It is perfectly fine for a FedEx pilot to make twice what we do, doing the same job, on the same plane, flying the same cargo, to the same places, creating the same revenue.
They deserve it, but we do not.
We should all just move on if we aren't one of the 50 777 Captains at SAI. Get some fresh meat in here that isn't tired of abuse yet. Youngsters who think things will get better on the next contract if they just work hard.
Keep perpetuating wage stagnation at ACMI carriers. Keep downward pressure on FedEx and UPS pilot wages. Because Yellow, Brown, and Purple still compete for revenue, and Yellow has an advantage over their peers, namely discounted labor compensation rates.
Actually we should all just give up any hope of anything ever getting any better. Because that would take a little bit of solidarity. And we are all individual independent contractors here, willing to undercut each other for momentary gain, even in the face of history showing that ultimately leads to long term loss.
Learned helplessness is a behavior in which an organism forced to endure aversive, painful or otherwise unpleasant stimuli, becomes unable or unwilling to avoid subsequent encounters with those stimuli, even if they are escapable. Presumably, the organism has learned that it cannot control the situation and therefore does not take action to avoid the negative stimulus.[1]
Learned helplessness theory is the view that clinical depression and related mental illnesses may result from a perceived absence of control over the outcome of a situation.[2] Organisms that have been ineffective and less sensitive in determining the consequences of their behavior are defined as having acquired learned helplessness.[3]
...
Cognitive scientist and usability engineer Donald Norman used learned helplessness to explain why people blame themselves when they have a difficult time using simple objects in their environment.[39]
The US sociologist Harrison White has suggested in his book Identity and Control that the notion of learned helplessness can be extended beyond psychology into the realm of social action. When a culture or political identity fails to achieve desired goals, perceptions of collective ability suffer.
05-03-2015 | 05:37 PM
#344
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 369
Likes: 0
Yep, you guys are right.
Southern is great.
No one has any complaints about the company. There is no problem here. Everything will always continue just as it always has.
SAI parked an airplane and subcontracted the flying to NAC just to share the bounty, not because conditions are so bad they can't staff the airline.
It is perfectly fine for a FedEx pilot to make twice what we do, doing the same job, on the same plane, flying the same cargo, to the same places, creating the same revenue.
They deserve it, but we do not.
We should all just move on if we aren't one of the 50 777 Captains at SAI. Get some fresh meat in here that isn't tired of abuse yet. Youngsters who think things will get better on the next contract if they just work hard.
Keep perpetuating wage stagnation at ACMI carriers. Keep downward pressure on FedEx and UPS pilot wages. Because Yellow, Brown, and Purple still compete for revenue, and Yellow has an advantage over their peers, namely discounted labor compensation rates.
Actually we should all just give up any hope of anything ever getting any better. Because that would take a little bit of solidarity. And we are all individual independent contractors here, willing to undercut each other for momentary gain, even in the face of history showing that ultimately leads to long term loss.
Learned helplessness is a behavior in which an organism forced to endure aversive, painful or otherwise unpleasant stimuli, becomes unable or unwilling to avoid subsequent encounters with those stimuli, even if they are escapable. Presumably, the organism has learned that it cannot control the situation and therefore does not take action to avoid the negative stimulus.[1]
Learned helplessness theory is the view that clinical depression and related mental illnesses may result from a perceived absence of control over the outcome of a situation.[2] Organisms that have been ineffective and less sensitive in determining the consequences of their behavior are defined as having acquired learned helplessness.[3]
...
Cognitive scientist and usability engineer Donald Norman used learned helplessness to explain why people blame themselves when they have a difficult time using simple objects in their environment.[39]
The US sociologist Harrison White has suggested in his book Identity and Control that the notion of learned helplessness can be extended beyond psychology into the realm of social action. When a culture or political identity fails to achieve desired goals, perceptions of collective ability suffer.
Southern is great.
No one has any complaints about the company. There is no problem here. Everything will always continue just as it always has.
SAI parked an airplane and subcontracted the flying to NAC just to share the bounty, not because conditions are so bad they can't staff the airline.
It is perfectly fine for a FedEx pilot to make twice what we do, doing the same job, on the same plane, flying the same cargo, to the same places, creating the same revenue.
They deserve it, but we do not.
We should all just move on if we aren't one of the 50 777 Captains at SAI. Get some fresh meat in here that isn't tired of abuse yet. Youngsters who think things will get better on the next contract if they just work hard.
Keep perpetuating wage stagnation at ACMI carriers. Keep downward pressure on FedEx and UPS pilot wages. Because Yellow, Brown, and Purple still compete for revenue, and Yellow has an advantage over their peers, namely discounted labor compensation rates.
Actually we should all just give up any hope of anything ever getting any better. Because that would take a little bit of solidarity. And we are all individual independent contractors here, willing to undercut each other for momentary gain, even in the face of history showing that ultimately leads to long term loss.
Learned helplessness is a behavior in which an organism forced to endure aversive, painful or otherwise unpleasant stimuli, becomes unable or unwilling to avoid subsequent encounters with those stimuli, even if they are escapable. Presumably, the organism has learned that it cannot control the situation and therefore does not take action to avoid the negative stimulus.[1]
Learned helplessness theory is the view that clinical depression and related mental illnesses may result from a perceived absence of control over the outcome of a situation.[2] Organisms that have been ineffective and less sensitive in determining the consequences of their behavior are defined as having acquired learned helplessness.[3]
...
Cognitive scientist and usability engineer Donald Norman used learned helplessness to explain why people blame themselves when they have a difficult time using simple objects in their environment.[39]
The US sociologist Harrison White has suggested in his book Identity and Control that the notion of learned helplessness can be extended beyond psychology into the realm of social action. When a culture or political identity fails to achieve desired goals, perceptions of collective ability suffer.
05-03-2015 | 06:16 PM
#345
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,183
Likes: 0
From: 777, sofa
You can't have it both ways. Either wages are not very important, and DHL won't care about such an insignificant cost going up. Or they are very important and DHL has an unfair competitive advantage.
05-03-2015 | 07:09 PM
#346
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 369
Likes: 0
And yet DHL would eviscerate any carrier who's pilots secured a better contract for themselves?
You can't have it both ways. Either wages are not very important, and DHL won't care about such an insignificant cost going up. Or they are very important and DHL has an unfair competitive advantage.
You can't have it both ways. Either wages are not very important, and DHL won't care about such an insignificant cost going up. Or they are very important and DHL has an unfair competitive advantage.
You are going to have to get over the fact that DHL's business model is different from FedEx and UPS. DHL uses contractors and pits them against each other to get the lowest bid.
05-03-2015 | 07:45 PM
#347
On Reserve
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
From: 21219
This thread has been pretty constructive with good info offered by SAI pilots in the know; and for anyone, such as myself, maybe considering SAI in the future, I thank you for that. However, lately this thread has been starting to spiral downwards into this.... guys you know who you are.... can we please limit the negativity and steer this thread back on to a more positive note? I'm hope in reality you're better than that to fly with. Thanks
05-03-2015 | 10:16 PM
#348
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
Sorry....I took the bait and vented my frustration.
Unfortunately, reading comprehension is not required for boards like this and even if it were, sometimes the true meaning or emotion can be misconstrued in written messages.
I am in no way a friend or fan of our current executive management. Quite the opposite actually. I'd never consider a mangement position because if you think the pilot wages are bad....the mangement wages at SAI are even worse. Many Captains make more then the VP of Ops. Even the executive bonuses pale in comparison to a larger, well run company like Atlas.....as they should. Plus, you are never truly free as a Flight Ops manager at SAI.
Because I am senior at SAI I do have some clarity. Right now we have a bunch of FO's who could be Boeing captains within a few months. There is no reason for them to stay on the 777 unless they are very close to Upgrade on the 777. They need to move on with their careers and recent PIC time is far, far more valuable then a bunch of laps around the planet in the 777. They have checked that box! Take the upgrade.
Furthermore, by taking the upgrade you will be doubling SAI's training costs. If you let the company hire a direct entry B737 Captain beneath you that is one training event. We are very close to that. Nobody likes to see direct entry captains unless there is such rapid growth that all of the eligible FO's have already upgraded.
If you upgrade from B777 FO to Captain on the B737 then staffing requires a new pilot to backfill your spot on the 777. That is two training events. When you find a better job that starts the cycle all over again. Doubling training costs will get noticed eventually! The execs and the BOD might finally institute some changes to improve the life of the B737 pilots to help with retention. Money is how you negotiate...not complaining on APC! I want to see improvements for the pilots at SAI. THAT IS MY UNDERLYING MESSAGE.
There can be no emotional involvement in wage & QOL improvements. It is all about $ and negotiating. FDX and UPS are where they are because they fought for everything they have. If you are not willing to actually put some skin into the game you will get nothing. There are plenty here on APC who put down SAI but they never fought the fight at their current "better" airline. They were simply hired at the right time and benefitted from the hard work of others.
If you accept a job at SAI, or any other airline, you should think of this.
As with ANY job. If you are unhappy you have four choices:
1)Pack your bags and get hired where you are better paid/appreciated
2)Work to improve your current conditions
3)$TFU and accept what you have
4)Yip & yap like a little chihuahua that everybody ignores until somebody gets frustrated and kicks that dang dog over the fence.
My personal opinion is that unless you choose choice 1 or 2 then option 3 applies. Nobody likes somebody who chooses 4. It's tiresome. I don't see any other choices. Do you?
There are plenty of current/former SAI pilots, friends of friends who worked at SAI, and the ever present Internet-Know-It-Alls to bash SAI. I try to give a realistic view of what life as a SAI 777 pilot is like. From my point of view...other than being underpaid...life is pretty simple. For those that disagree, feel free to post your actual horror story of what has happened to you in the last 12 months while on line at SAI. The SAI of old is just that....old and a good war story over beers. We are talking the last 12 months. This is the info potential new hires need to make an informed decision.
I want to see quality new hires. We need you. However, if you are not willing to contribute please look elsewhere. As I have posted previously. Southern can be a good option for the right people. Come here, get the experience you need, and then make the decision to stay or move on.
Unfortunately, reading comprehension is not required for boards like this and even if it were, sometimes the true meaning or emotion can be misconstrued in written messages.
I am in no way a friend or fan of our current executive management. Quite the opposite actually. I'd never consider a mangement position because if you think the pilot wages are bad....the mangement wages at SAI are even worse. Many Captains make more then the VP of Ops. Even the executive bonuses pale in comparison to a larger, well run company like Atlas.....as they should. Plus, you are never truly free as a Flight Ops manager at SAI.
Because I am senior at SAI I do have some clarity. Right now we have a bunch of FO's who could be Boeing captains within a few months. There is no reason for them to stay on the 777 unless they are very close to Upgrade on the 777. They need to move on with their careers and recent PIC time is far, far more valuable then a bunch of laps around the planet in the 777. They have checked that box! Take the upgrade.
Furthermore, by taking the upgrade you will be doubling SAI's training costs. If you let the company hire a direct entry B737 Captain beneath you that is one training event. We are very close to that. Nobody likes to see direct entry captains unless there is such rapid growth that all of the eligible FO's have already upgraded.
If you upgrade from B777 FO to Captain on the B737 then staffing requires a new pilot to backfill your spot on the 777. That is two training events. When you find a better job that starts the cycle all over again. Doubling training costs will get noticed eventually! The execs and the BOD might finally institute some changes to improve the life of the B737 pilots to help with retention. Money is how you negotiate...not complaining on APC! I want to see improvements for the pilots at SAI. THAT IS MY UNDERLYING MESSAGE.
There can be no emotional involvement in wage & QOL improvements. It is all about $ and negotiating. FDX and UPS are where they are because they fought for everything they have. If you are not willing to actually put some skin into the game you will get nothing. There are plenty here on APC who put down SAI but they never fought the fight at their current "better" airline. They were simply hired at the right time and benefitted from the hard work of others.
If you accept a job at SAI, or any other airline, you should think of this.
As with ANY job. If you are unhappy you have four choices:
1)Pack your bags and get hired where you are better paid/appreciated
2)Work to improve your current conditions
3)$TFU and accept what you have
4)Yip & yap like a little chihuahua that everybody ignores until somebody gets frustrated and kicks that dang dog over the fence.
My personal opinion is that unless you choose choice 1 or 2 then option 3 applies. Nobody likes somebody who chooses 4. It's tiresome. I don't see any other choices. Do you?
There are plenty of current/former SAI pilots, friends of friends who worked at SAI, and the ever present Internet-Know-It-Alls to bash SAI. I try to give a realistic view of what life as a SAI 777 pilot is like. From my point of view...other than being underpaid...life is pretty simple. For those that disagree, feel free to post your actual horror story of what has happened to you in the last 12 months while on line at SAI. The SAI of old is just that....old and a good war story over beers. We are talking the last 12 months. This is the info potential new hires need to make an informed decision.
I want to see quality new hires. We need you. However, if you are not willing to contribute please look elsewhere. As I have posted previously. Southern can be a good option for the right people. Come here, get the experience you need, and then make the decision to stay or move on.
05-04-2015 | 01:23 AM
#349
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 269
Likes: 0
Strikes,
Thanks for your "candor" to use a phrase from our imperious leader.
There is still a fair amount of circular reasoning in your post on many of your points of argument.
Getting 777 FO's to bid for 737 Captain and then move on, so as to make things better? Isn't this just counting on a bit too much? We have a fair amount of older FO's that are refuges from other carriers that can't just go to the bottom of the seniority list at some other carrier. Who's to say what the hiring environment is going to be like when these people get sufficient command time to move on? Seeing how little time that the 73's fly it's going to be a while before you get 1000 hours.
There is a lot of people that have been @ SAI for over 5 years that don't ever see the possibility of going to the left seat of the 777. When you consider that the 5th 777 is always somewhere out on the horizon as some vague possibility, it makes it that much more hopeless for these folks. The situation on the 777 is complete stagnation, with no relief in sight. Going to the 737 for slave wages when they probably already have command time is an act of total stupidity.
Moving to the 737 even as Captain says nothing of the fact of the penalty to be paid in a cr*ppy lifestyle, loss of home basing, pay cut that we were all sold into accepting in a vain attempt to tell us that all our jobs would be lost if we didn't sign on the dotted line on a cr*p LOA, that damages SAI pilots irrefutably, drives a wedge between SAI and the other 1224/DHL carriers, and cheapens the entire industry. So what your saying is that these people have to suffer even more to attempt to make things better at SAI, and keep them from hiring 737 DEC's?
It is fairly obvious that management doesn't care about training costs. They never have, and never will. SAI has spent more on training in the last year than what they say they will be saving by moving 767 ops to their new precious nugget FWIA. Lies is the only thing that is perpetuated by SAI management.
The only thing that would have any affect on this company is that people will just not want to work here, period end of story. Aircraft will not move because they aren't staffed (can you say NAC 737?).
Appealing to the younger crowd to come here, get some experience and move on is counter to this goal, so are you really helping the cause by selling SAI as a great place to work, get experience, and are you still saying that "The Triple Seven is like working for a whole other company"
I think that your top ten captain's perspective is out of sync with the reality of the rest of people at SAI. The majority of 777 captains (save the top tier Check Airmen) are not pulling in more than 200K a year unless they are not home for more than 3-5 days a month, or have been sucked into some brutal TEP situation - repeatedly. FO's are only making good money if they are suffering in a similar fashion. The wages here s*ck. Decent money is only made here by flying brutal schedules and putting your long term health at risk.
It's hard to have any true perspective of other peoples lives when you are living the charmed existence at the top of the stack. So maybe you should follow your own advice, "$TFU" and do the real work necessary to make thing better @ the new SAI.
Sorry for my "candor" - End of Rant.
Thanks for your "candor" to use a phrase from our imperious leader.
There is still a fair amount of circular reasoning in your post on many of your points of argument.
Getting 777 FO's to bid for 737 Captain and then move on, so as to make things better? Isn't this just counting on a bit too much? We have a fair amount of older FO's that are refuges from other carriers that can't just go to the bottom of the seniority list at some other carrier. Who's to say what the hiring environment is going to be like when these people get sufficient command time to move on? Seeing how little time that the 73's fly it's going to be a while before you get 1000 hours.
There is a lot of people that have been @ SAI for over 5 years that don't ever see the possibility of going to the left seat of the 777. When you consider that the 5th 777 is always somewhere out on the horizon as some vague possibility, it makes it that much more hopeless for these folks. The situation on the 777 is complete stagnation, with no relief in sight. Going to the 737 for slave wages when they probably already have command time is an act of total stupidity.
Moving to the 737 even as Captain says nothing of the fact of the penalty to be paid in a cr*ppy lifestyle, loss of home basing, pay cut that we were all sold into accepting in a vain attempt to tell us that all our jobs would be lost if we didn't sign on the dotted line on a cr*p LOA, that damages SAI pilots irrefutably, drives a wedge between SAI and the other 1224/DHL carriers, and cheapens the entire industry. So what your saying is that these people have to suffer even more to attempt to make things better at SAI, and keep them from hiring 737 DEC's?
It is fairly obvious that management doesn't care about training costs. They never have, and never will. SAI has spent more on training in the last year than what they say they will be saving by moving 767 ops to their new precious nugget FWIA. Lies is the only thing that is perpetuated by SAI management.
The only thing that would have any affect on this company is that people will just not want to work here, period end of story. Aircraft will not move because they aren't staffed (can you say NAC 737?).
Appealing to the younger crowd to come here, get some experience and move on is counter to this goal, so are you really helping the cause by selling SAI as a great place to work, get experience, and are you still saying that "The Triple Seven is like working for a whole other company"
I think that your top ten captain's perspective is out of sync with the reality of the rest of people at SAI. The majority of 777 captains (save the top tier Check Airmen) are not pulling in more than 200K a year unless they are not home for more than 3-5 days a month, or have been sucked into some brutal TEP situation - repeatedly. FO's are only making good money if they are suffering in a similar fashion. The wages here s*ck. Decent money is only made here by flying brutal schedules and putting your long term health at risk.
It's hard to have any true perspective of other peoples lives when you are living the charmed existence at the top of the stack. So maybe you should follow your own advice, "$TFU" and do the real work necessary to make thing better @ the new SAI.
Sorry for my "candor" - End of Rant.
Last edited by Diesel8; 05-04-2015 at 01:56 AM.
05-04-2015 | 05:21 AM
#350
Line Holder
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
From: Front seat window washer
You guys have way too much time on your hands apparently to be writing all these long posts.
It's like a sewing circle , seems like you all have nothing to do but worry about what other crew members are doing or should do.
Go have a drink and relax!
It's like a sewing circle , seems like you all have nothing to do but worry about what other crew members are doing or should do.
Go have a drink and relax!
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
