IFR in G airspace
01-25-2009, 03:07 PM
#1
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IFR in G airspace
Heard a few different beliefs on this and just trying to feel it out on here.
If you are flying in G airspace, are you able to fly through clouds without being in contact with ATC? The FARS state that you need an IFR flight plan and have received a clearance before entering controlled airspace. This is all assuming you and your plane are IFR rated and current.
thanks
If you are flying in G airspace, are you able to fly through clouds without being in contact with ATC? The FARS state that you need an IFR flight plan and have received a clearance before entering controlled airspace. This is all assuming you and your plane are IFR rated and current.
thanks
01-25-2009, 03:44 PM
#2
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ATC does not have the resources (radar & radios) nor the authority to control you in Class G airspace.
Other than that, IFR in class G is just like IFR in controlled airspace...you must obey all the rules: terrain clearance, altitudes, nav systems, airplane and pilot certification and currency, etc.
Traffic separation is conducted according to the "Big Sky, Little Airplane" theory...you just take your chances. In places with a lot of class G IFR (alaska) there are informal air-to-air frequencies and pilots self-announce when they approach navaids and checkpoints.
If you depart IFR in class G but plan to enter controlled airspace, you will need to file an IFR flight pan and obtain clearance to enter before doing so.
Other than that, IFR in class G is just like IFR in controlled airspace...you must obey all the rules: terrain clearance, altitudes, nav systems, airplane and pilot certification and currency, etc.
Traffic separation is conducted according to the "Big Sky, Little Airplane" theory...you just take your chances. In places with a lot of class G IFR (alaska) there are informal air-to-air frequencies and pilots self-announce when they approach navaids and checkpoints.
If you depart IFR in class G but plan to enter controlled airspace, you will need to file an IFR flight pan and obtain clearance to enter before doing so.
01-26-2009, 04:48 AM
#4
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Ditto, with a caveat- the one covered in part by rickair's last sentence:
There are cases in which a pilot has been violated on careless/reckless grounds for flying in the clouds in Class G airspace when the flight has a potential impact on aircraft in controlled airspace. Probably the most well known is Administrator v Murphy.
There's a good chance that in the arguments you've heard on this someone mentioned the case. Some people point to it as making all Class G IFR flight careless and reckless under 91.13(a) unless it is connected to an IFR flight plan; others read it as making Class G IFR flight careless and reckless under certain circumstances.
There are cases in which a pilot has been violated on careless/reckless grounds for flying in the clouds in Class G airspace when the flight has a potential impact on aircraft in controlled airspace. Probably the most well known is Administrator v Murphy.
There's a good chance that in the arguments you've heard on this someone mentioned the case. Some people point to it as making all Class G IFR flight careless and reckless under 91.13(a) unless it is connected to an IFR flight plan; others read it as making Class G IFR flight careless and reckless under certain circumstances.
01-26-2009, 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by rickair7777
ATC does not have the resources (radar & radios) nor the authority to control you in Class G airspace.
Other than that, IFR in class G is just like IFR in controlled airspace...you must obey all the rules: terrain clearance, altitudes, nav systems, airplane and pilot certification and currency, etc.
Traffic separation is conducted according to the "Big Sky, Little Airplane" theory...you just take your chances. In places with a lot of class G IFR (alaska) there are informal air-to-air frequencies and pilots self-announce when they approach navaids and checkpoints.
If you depart IFR in class G but plan to enter controlled airspace, you will need to file an IFR flight pan and obtain clearance to enter before doing so.
Other than that, IFR in class G is just like IFR in controlled airspace...you must obey all the rules: terrain clearance, altitudes, nav systems, airplane and pilot certification and currency, etc.
Traffic separation is conducted according to the "Big Sky, Little Airplane" theory...you just take your chances. In places with a lot of class G IFR (alaska) there are informal air-to-air frequencies and pilots self-announce when they approach navaids and checkpoints.
If you depart IFR in class G but plan to enter controlled airspace, you will need to file an IFR flight pan and obtain clearance to enter before doing so.
01-26-2009, 08:21 AM
#6
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Originally Posted by OperatorError
I understand what you're saying here, but there are only 2 types of flight plans (IFR and VFR). If you're not IFR, woudn't the VFR cloud clearances take effect?
"IFR Conditions" or "IFR" means that you must obey those rules when flying IFR regardless of airspace, controlled or not. This includes things such as VOR checks and terrain clearance.
91.173 covers IFR Flight plans and clearances...it uses the controlled airspace language, so it does not apply to uncontrolled airspace. The implied corollary to 91.173 is that an IFR flight plan and clearance are not required in uncontrolled airspace.
01-26-2009, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by NoyGonnaDoIt
Ditto, with a caveat- the one covered in part by rickair's last sentence:
There are cases in which a pilot has been violated on careless/reckless grounds for flying in the clouds in Class G airspace when the flight has a potential impact on aircraft in controlled airspace. Probably the most well known is Administrator v Murphy.
There's a good chance that in the arguments you've heard on this someone mentioned the case. Some people point to it as making all Class G IFR flight careless and reckless under 91.13(a) unless it is connected to an IFR flight plan; others read it as making Class G IFR flight careless and reckless under certain circumstances.
There are cases in which a pilot has been violated on careless/reckless grounds for flying in the clouds in Class G airspace when the flight has a potential impact on aircraft in controlled airspace. Probably the most well known is Administrator v Murphy.
There's a good chance that in the arguments you've heard on this someone mentioned the case. Some people point to it as making all Class G IFR flight careless and reckless under 91.13(a) unless it is connected to an IFR flight plan; others read it as making Class G IFR flight careless and reckless under certain circumstances.
In alaska people fly around all day in class G without ATC clearance...but they don't enter controlled airspace.
01-26-2009, 09:53 AM
#8
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Originally Posted by rickair7777
This was specific to a very brief flight which started in class G and quickly entered controlled (E) airspace. The problem here was that the pilot probably entered class E without cloud clearance and definitely without ATC clearance. Sounds reckless to me.
In alaska people fly around all day in class G without ATC clearance...but they don't enter controlled airspace.
In alaska people fly around all day in class G without ATC clearance...but they don't enter controlled airspace.
Agree. Lots of part time interenet reg gurus like to point this case out as the "careless/reckless" for all Class G IFR, but if you read the case, it was pretty clear that the guys intent was to game the system into getting an IFR clearance.
Completely different than Class G IFR in Alaska.
Nu
01-28-2009, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by NuGuy
Heyas Rick,
but if you read the case, it was pretty clear that the guys intent was to game the system into getting an IFR clearance.
Nu
but if you read the case, it was pretty clear that the guys intent was to game the system into getting an IFR clearance.
Nu
Careless, definatly. Reckless, certainly. Stupid, absolutely. Being a smart-a$$ and trying to work the system, if it wasn't so foolish, I'd have to give the guy credit for trying to beat the system. But it was completly uncalled for, and endangered the lives of all on board. Try to beat the system another way' Change the flight plan once airborne or something.
02-09-2009, 10:41 AM
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You can fly in IMC conditions all day long in class G airspace. You need a clearance to enter controlled airspace. That's why when you depart a uncontrolled field with class G airspace, your clearance will state "upon entering controlled airspace, ATC clears XXXXX to do something.
The key issue with Admin V. Murphy was that the pilot had no information as to if VMC conditions would be present when the plane reached controlled airspace and the pilots statments that he was going to be operating under VFR when the conditions were clearly not VMC.
As stated by others, the key is untedstanding the the difference between IFR (that's the regulations) and IMC (that's the weather).
The key issue with Admin V. Murphy was that the pilot had no information as to if VMC conditions would be present when the plane reached controlled airspace and the pilots statments that he was going to be operating under VFR when the conditions were clearly not VMC.
As stated by others, the key is untedstanding the the difference between IFR (that's the regulations) and IMC (that's the weather).
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