Cancelling IFR in Class B Airspace
10-31-2009 | 02:33 PM
#21
Line Holder
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 81
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There doesn't seem to be a relevant chief counsel's opinion on the FAA website. Considering the following though, I think I will continue to clarify that I have received a "clearance" into/through Class B, prior to entry, anytime I'm VFR (or shortly expected to be) unless I hear something to the effect of "cleared into Bravo". Controllers often voluntarily say this prior to being asked, so that must mean something. A heading and altitude assignment alone do not seem to make a "clearance".
From the AIM:
From the P/C Glossary:
P/C Glossary again:
From the AIM:
4-4-3 Clearance Items
ATC clearances normally contain the following:
a. Clearance Limit. The traffic clearance issued prior to departure will normally authorize flight to the airport of intended landing. Under certain conditions at some locations...a clearance is issued to a fix within or just outside of the terminal area...
b. Departure Procedure....
c. Route of Flight....
d. Altitude Data....
e. Holding Instructions....
ATC clearances normally contain the following:
a. Clearance Limit. The traffic clearance issued prior to departure will normally authorize flight to the airport of intended landing. Under certain conditions at some locations...a clearance is issued to a fix within or just outside of the terminal area...
b. Departure Procedure....
c. Route of Flight....
d. Altitude Data....
e. Holding Instructions....
AIR TRAFFIC CLEARANCE. An authorization by air traffic control for the purpose of preventing collision between known aircraft, for an aircraft to proceed under specified traffic conditions within controlled airspace....Pilots may also request clarification or amendment, as appropriate, any time a clearance is not fully understood...THE PILOT IS RESPONSIBLE TO REQUEST AN AMENDED CLEARANCE if ATC issues a clearance that would cause a pilot to deviate from a rule or regulation...
ATC INSTRUCTIONS. Directives issued by air traffic control for the purpose of requiring a pilot to take specific actions; e.g., "Turn left heading two five zero,"...
10-31-2009 | 07:03 PM
#22
Blue Light Special
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 637
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From: Learjet 45 & G-IV
I'm pretty sure Flight Following doesn't grant them authority to give Vectors. Unless you've Ident'd and gotten the aforementioned clearance. I've known them to give "suggested headings" under FF, which are not vectors at all, but exactly that..., suggested.
10-31-2009 | 07:55 PM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2008
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Keep in mind that you DO NOT need to hear the words "Clear into class B". No where in the regs/AIM does it say you need to hear those words to enter the airspace. If you receive a heading/altitude assignment, this is your clearance into class B. Too often I keep hearing on the radio "Am I clear into class B???" when they clearly received one in the first place.
Originally Posted by JO7110.65S
7-9-2. VFR AIRCRAFT IN CLASS B AIRSPACE
a. VFR aircraft must obtain an ATC clearance to
operate in Class B airspace.
REFERENCE
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 2-1-18, Operational Requests.
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 2-4-22, Airspace Classes.
PHRASEOLOGY
CLEARED THROUGH/TO ENTER/OUT OF BRAVO AIRSPACE,
and as appropriate,
VIA (route). MAINTAIN (altitude) WHILE IN BRAVO
AIRSPACE.
or
CLEARED AS REQUESTED.
(Additional instructions, as necessary.)
REMAIN OUTSIDE BRAVO AIRSPACE. (When
necessary, reason and/or additional instructions.)
NOTE-
1. Assignment of radar headings, routes, or altitudes is
based on the provision that a pilot operating in accordance
with VFR is expected to advise ATC if compliance will
cause violation of any part of the CFR.
2. Separation and sequencing for VFR aircraft is
dependent upon radar. Efforts should be made to segregate
VFR traffic from IFR traffic flows when a radar outage
occurs.
b. Approve/deny requests from VFR aircraft to
operate in Class B airspace based on workload,
operational limitations and traffic conditions.
c. Inform the pilot when to expect further
clearance when VFR aircraft are held either inside or
outside Class B airspace.
d. Inform VFR aircraft when leaving Class B
airspace.
PHRASEOLOGY
LEAVING (name) BRAVO AIRSPACE,
and as appropriate,
RESUME OWN NAVIGATION, REMAIN THIS
FREQUENCY FOR TRAFFIC ADVISORIES, RADAR
SERVICE TERMINATED, SQUAWK ONE TWO ZERO
ZERO.
a. VFR aircraft must obtain an ATC clearance to
operate in Class B airspace.
REFERENCE
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 2-1-18, Operational Requests.
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 2-4-22, Airspace Classes.
PHRASEOLOGY
CLEARED THROUGH/TO ENTER/OUT OF BRAVO AIRSPACE,
and as appropriate,
VIA (route). MAINTAIN (altitude) WHILE IN BRAVO
AIRSPACE.
or
CLEARED AS REQUESTED.
(Additional instructions, as necessary.)
REMAIN OUTSIDE BRAVO AIRSPACE. (When
necessary, reason and/or additional instructions.)
NOTE-
1. Assignment of radar headings, routes, or altitudes is
based on the provision that a pilot operating in accordance
with VFR is expected to advise ATC if compliance will
cause violation of any part of the CFR.
2. Separation and sequencing for VFR aircraft is
dependent upon radar. Efforts should be made to segregate
VFR traffic from IFR traffic flows when a radar outage
occurs.
b. Approve/deny requests from VFR aircraft to
operate in Class B airspace based on workload,
operational limitations and traffic conditions.
c. Inform the pilot when to expect further
clearance when VFR aircraft are held either inside or
outside Class B airspace.
d. Inform VFR aircraft when leaving Class B
airspace.
PHRASEOLOGY
LEAVING (name) BRAVO AIRSPACE,
and as appropriate,
RESUME OWN NAVIGATION, REMAIN THIS
FREQUENCY FOR TRAFFIC ADVISORIES, RADAR
SERVICE TERMINATED, SQUAWK ONE TWO ZERO
ZERO.
Last edited by Tiger2Flying; 10-31-2009 at 08:18 PM.
11-01-2009 | 10:14 PM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 278
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ATC will tell you whats up when you cancel, if you are IFR and cancel and they want you gone they will probably vector you out. VFR, Mcartier is right suggested heading is not a vector; a suggested heading that flys you toward the bravo should be confirmed, since when did confirming anything w/ATC get you in trouble? Ill confirm it three times on the way there if I am still not sure, I dont care, Im PIC and I need to know.
11-02-2009 | 12:10 AM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 152
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From: Side Windin', Bush Wackin', Horn Swagglin' Kraker Kroker
I've got a question for you guys.
When you cancel IFR, doesn't ATC say something like "... radar services terminated, squawk VFR"? If you're in the middle of class-B when you cancel they aren't going to say that.
It seems to me in this situation the ball is in ATC's court - they have to give you some instructions. Either squawk (bla bla bla) and maintain your current heading, or get your little 172 out.
In the last case, pretty much all you'd have to do is descend a little bit and you're good to go.
When you cancel IFR, doesn't ATC say something like "... radar services terminated, squawk VFR"? If you're in the middle of class-B when you cancel they aren't going to say that.
It seems to me in this situation the ball is in ATC's court - they have to give you some instructions. Either squawk (bla bla bla) and maintain your current heading, or get your little 172 out.
In the last case, pretty much all you'd have to do is descend a little bit and you're good to go.
11-02-2009 | 05:35 AM
#26
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 45,126
Likes: 796
From: Engines Turn or People Swim
They can give you vectors (suggested heading/ALT), it's up to you whether you accept them or not. But you had better let them know what you are going to do if it's something other than what they suggest. If you are on FF, it is assumed for practical purposes that you will cooperate...if you don't then 91.13 rears it's head.
11-02-2009 | 08:46 AM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 349
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From: BE50C (A), BE95 (A), C172S (B)
I've got a question for you guys.
When you cancel IFR, doesn't ATC say something like "... radar services terminated, squawk VFR"? If you're in the middle of class-B when you cancel they aren't going to say that.
It seems to me in this situation the ball is in ATC's court - they have to give you some instructions. Either squawk (bla bla bla) and maintain your current heading, or get your little 172 out.
In the last case, pretty much all you'd have to do is descend a little bit and you're good to go.
When you cancel IFR, doesn't ATC say something like "... radar services terminated, squawk VFR"? If you're in the middle of class-B when you cancel they aren't going to say that.
It seems to me in this situation the ball is in ATC's court - they have to give you some instructions. Either squawk (bla bla bla) and maintain your current heading, or get your little 172 out.
In the last case, pretty much all you'd have to do is descend a little bit and you're good to go.
11-02-2009 | 09:03 AM
#28
Thread Starter
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 105
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In this case, I departed SMO on a climb to VFR-on-top clearance, with intent to cancel IFR and transition LAX via the SFRA. Controller didn't seem unhappy at all with my request; in fact after contacting a new controller to request FF after transitioning the SFRA, the new controller already had my information/destination, so the original controller had coordinated me with him. Maybe he was just in a really, really good mood?
I fly in SOCAL airspace under FF all the time, and I frequently get assigned vectors that do not contain the word "suggest."
I fly in SOCAL airspace under FF all the time, and I frequently get assigned vectors that do not contain the word "suggest."
11-02-2009 | 10:28 AM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2009
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From: Side Windin', Bush Wackin', Horn Swagglin' Kraker Kroker
If you're walking with big bags of cash, you don't fire your bodyguard halfway through Central Park.
Anyway, the point of the original post was, do IFR vectors that just so happen to carry you through class-B imply class-B clearance.
11-02-2009 | 05:09 PM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 349
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From: BE50C (A), BE95 (A), C172S (B)
Or, wait 3-5 minutes, clear class-B and cancel in class-E.
If you're walking with big bags of cash, you don't fire your bodyguard halfway through Central Park.
Anyway, the point of the original post was, do IFR vectors that just so happen to carry you through class-B imply class-B clearance.
If you're walking with big bags of cash, you don't fire your bodyguard halfway through Central Park.
Anyway, the point of the original post was, do IFR vectors that just so happen to carry you through class-B imply class-B clearance.
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