multipilot

We were tossing this around in the flight department and I wanted to get the forum's opinion. And I'll tell you upfront that this gets into those muddy waters of "acting PIC" vs. "logging PIC".

Can a pilot, who isn't night current, log PIC night landings for 61.57 night proficiency on a plane carrying passengers while another pilot is the acting PIC. For all practical purposes the other pilot (acting PIC) is not an authorized instructor.

Thoughts?

rickair7777

Two separate issues here...

1. Can you legally PERFORM the landings under those circumstances? Yes, I think so because you don't have to PIC, or SIC, or student, or anything to manipulate the flight controls...the actual PIC is still responsible.

2. Can you LOG the landings? This is the grey area because you are not an SIC, student, or any legal crewmember...you're just going for an airplane ride. The language in 61.57 just says "sole manipulator" so I would tend to think that it might be legal to log the landings. Unfortunately I don't think you can log the flight time at all (assuming ASEL certified for one pilot)...logging the time would imply that you were the PIC, since without a CFI only one of you can log it...there's no other "required crewmember" in this situation.

So the problem is you would have a strange logbook entry that would require some "splanin" if it was ever scrutinized.

I wouldn't do it. Or ask a lawyer or the FAA first.

NoyGonnaDoIt

I have to disagree with Rick. It's not grey at all. Logging landings for currency requires only that you be the only person manipulating the controls for the landing. Nothing about being PIC or SIC, logging PIC or SIC, being required crew or not required crew. Nothing about there being a CFI or not. Just the "sole manipulator" during the landing.

And although you didn't ask about logging the flight time, for the brief time you were landing the airplane, you can definitely log it as PIC.

(I'm assuming of course that you're rated in category, class and, if necessary, type. If you weren't there wouldn't be any relevant currency to count the landings toward)

propilot

No. You aren't night current, therefore you cannot carry passengers at night. Since you can't carry passengers at night, you can't fly the airplane, land the airplane, or log the flight time. It's in black and white in the first paragraph of FAR 61.57. The only way around it is if it's a multi-crew airplane or the other person is an instructor and your getting dual received, until that 3rd landing is made, you can't legally do it.

rickair7777

You're the expert, but I'm just not seeing where the regs allow you to log it for currency. I've always been under the impression (maybe "assumed") that in order to log sole man for FAA purposes you have to be a required crewmember or getting dual.

So the assumption is that your non-CFI buddy will keep the pax safe if you goon it up?

JamesNoBrakes

I agree with this one. Pretty hard to get around the "can't carry passengers at night". As soon as you take the controls, you are flying as PIC without having the required night landings. Doesn't matter who you are with if you have "passengers".

The only exception I know if is the FAA legal interp: http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...kraxinterp.pdf If you are getting night current, not presently current, and your "passenger" is a properly rated flight instructor giving you dual, neither one of you have to be night current, and neither one of you are considered a "passenger" for the purpose of getting your landings.

JohnBurke

Absolutely not. One does not need to be the acting pilot in command in order to log the flight time, or the landings or an approach. One does not need to be a required crew member.

If I go for a flight with Crazy Cousin Eddy in his Bonanza, which requires just one pilot, and Eddy has me drive while he takes a siesta, he can remain the pilot in command all he likes. I'm able to log the time as sole manipulator, even though I'm not a required crew member, and even though I'm not the lawful pilot in command. A CFI does not need to be on board, nor does a requirement for a second crewmember need to be in place.

The question isn't whether both can log it. The question is whether a non-current pilot can get current with passengers on board.

The regulation is very clear, here:

§ 61.57 Recent flight experience: Pilot in command.
(a) General experience. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as a pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers or of an aircraft certificated for more than one pilot flight crewmember unless that person has made at least three takeoffs and three landings within the preceding 90 days, and—

(i) The person acted as the sole manipulator of the flight controls; and

(ii) The required takeoffs and landings were performed in an aircraft of the same category, class, and type (if a type rating is required), and, if the aircraft to be flown is an airplane with a tailwheel, the takeoffs and landings must have been made to a full stop in an airplane with a tailwheel.

(2) For the purpose of meeting the requirements of paragraph (a)(1) of this section, a person may act as a pilot in command of an aircraft under day VFR or day IFR, provided no persons or property are carried on board the aircraft, other than those necessary for the conduct of the flight.

One cannot act as PIC at night if not night current, with passengers on board, to get current. One may act as PIC at night when not current, to get night current, if NO passengers are on board.

However, if one wishes to get night current, one may act as sole manipulator of the controls (which is NOT the same as acting as pilot in command) at night, with or without passengers, and get the landings. One may log the time and the landings, presuming one is rated category and class in the aircraft.

Absolutely not. Does that mean that if my First Officer flies the aircraft, he suddenly becomes Captain, or Pilot in Command? Of course not.

Manipulating the controls does not make you pilot in command. This is the case whether it's a large transport category aircraft, or a Cessna 152. The pilot in command is the person designated for the flight who takes ultimate responsibility for the safe outcome of the flight. If the pilot in command allows a passenger, his cousin, or Chuck Yeager to manipulate the controls, he has not given up his position as pilot in command. If the passenger seizes control, the PIC is still the acting PIC unless he gives up that position by mutual agreement (or in the case of a 121 or 135 flight, is re-designated by the operator).

If one is non-current, one may manipulate the controls, log the time, with or without passengers, and regain currency, so long as one isn't acting as pilot in command during that time. Manipulating the controls does NOT make one pilot in command.

NoyGonnaDoIt

Definitely. He's the PIC.

In terms of your assumption - can you point out where in 61.57 (or for that matter, any FAA document, regulatory or not) it says the pilot logging the landings needs to be required crew? If you think it does, can you point out the exemption where the other pilot is a CFI?

Looking at the night landing one for the moment:

==============================
(b) Night takeoff and landing experience.

(1) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise, unless within the preceding 90 days that person has made at least three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise, and -
(i) That person acted as sole manipulator of the flight controls; and

(ii) The required takeoffs and landings were performed in an aircraft of the same category, class, and type (if a type rating is required).
==============================

I don't see:

(ii) The required takeoffs and landings were performed in an aircraft of the same category, class, and type (if a type rating is required); and

(iii) The person is acting as pilot in command, as a required crewmember, or a CFI is present in the cockpit
==============================

Do you? I don't.

rickair7777

OK, so you can log flight time without any crewmember status based on sole manipulator?

My kids log time when I fly with them (just in case they ever need total time), but I'm a CFI so it's dual. If Dad is a PPL, his kids can log sole man too?

EDIT: You posted while I was typing. OK, so since it's not verbotten that makes it OK.

NoyGonnaDoIt

Do the kids have pilot certificates? If they don't, there's nothing countable to log if they are not receiving dual. If not dual they simply don't fit any 61.51 category for logging flight time (PIC or otherwise; they are hopefully not the sole occupants of the airplane!).

You can play with the words a little and end up saying they can log landings for currency but there's nothing to be current for because they aren't going to be acting as pilot in command of a flight with passengers (at least we hope not).
It's not a matter of being verbotten or not. These are logging rules. They are a 100% bureaucratic creature. There's no moral authority handing them down. That's kind of the problem with logging discussions - people substitute "I don't think it's right to do that" for categories that are simply "here's how to count things for the FAA." If what you are doing fits the regulatory language, it counts; if it doesn't fit the regulatory language, it doesn't.

In the case of landing that count for acting as PIC with passengers, the FAA created a short punch list of what counts. Pilot fits the punch list? It counts.