kbiermann

I have an internship flying for a company (Part 91), and we operate a Piper Cheyenne IIXL, and a Piper Navajo Chieftain. I have a commercial multiengine/single engine land certificate with instrument rating and a high altitude endorsement. I am allowed to fly legs (including t/o and landings) when we do not have passengers on board, and also quite a bit of enroute with passengers on board. I am able to log this time as PIC because I am qualified in the category/class airplanes we are operating, and I am the "Sole manipulator of the flight controls." Basically I am wondering if I can log the other flight time (i.e. the time when im not acting as PIC) as anything. CFR 61.55 (a) says that "a person may serve as second-in-command of an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crew member OR IN OPERATIONS REQUIRING A SECOND-IN-COMMAND ONLY IF THAT PERSON HOLDS:......" Neither the Cheyenne or Navajo have a type-certificate that requires a SIC, but our insurance requires a co-pilot for us to operate with passengers aboard. So since we are required by our insurance to have a co-pilot would that fall under the "In operations requiring a SIC" part of 61.55 and allow me to log that time as SIC or not?

Thanks in advance for any insight.

iflyjets4food

Hate to spoil things for ya, but the FAA and the insurance are two different parties. Even though the insurance requires the co-pilot, the FAA does not. Since you are asking about logging flight time using an FAA definition, you have to meet FAA requirements, which don't include a co-pilot for your flight. The "operations requiring a SIC" statement is meant to allow Part 135 qualified co-pilots flying in Part 135 passenger carrying operations that go without an autopilot to log time as SIC. The only value of the right seat time in the airplane as PNF is if an insurance company will take that time to meet some insurance requirement (and some will). You can keep track of it, but it is of little value in your logbook (although you will learn a lot). Hope this helps.

Slice

I was in a situation like yours when I was building time. I only logged my left seat legs.

WhiteH2O

Call the FSDO, I have heard of people logging time that was required by insurance. If the insurance requires it, it is a required position. The FARs don't really define "required position" so it doesn't really limit it to a type requirement.

Ottopilot

I flew "right seat" in a Cheyenne 400LS. I logged it SIC. I had a FAA part 135 checkride and sign off for "co-pilot" in the 400LS. Since I trained in it, took a checkride with a federal aviation inspector, and held the 135 piece of paper saying so- I logged it as SIC. No one ever said anything about it.

I only got 100 hours in it before going on to fly a Cheyenne II single pilot for a year, so it was really no big deal.

In an airline interview they asked me questions on the 400LS to see if I ever flew it (and I had a copy of the 135 checkride paperwork with me). Be sure you know the plane you're flying when you go to an interview or you may look like a liar.

rickair7777

This is correct. Otto is also correct. If you log "insurance SIC" time eventually someone somewhere will take exception (I would, and I'm a pretty reasonable guy). Let's say you log it, use it to get a job at a regional...OK, great now trainings almost done and your SIM checkride is tomorrow. Problem is your new comnpany flies into Mexico, which means you need an SIC type rating which you will get when you pass the checkride...so you're sitting there staring at an 8710...

If you don't use your " Insurance SIC" time on the 8710, you are going to have less time than is required for employment at your company, and less time than is shown on your resume.

But if you DO use that time on the 8710, you are falsifying a federal form...automatic, permanent loss of licenses, and that's before the criminal penalties!

Bottom line: If you have an opportunity to fly non-sic right seat, great! Have fun and learn something, but log it in a seperate column or not at all. If someone wants to charge you money for that, DON'T DO IT, you are being scammed. If you already did, you have been scammed.

rickair7777

It is a reasonable assumption that "required position" means specifically required by law or regulation, not arbitrarily by a private interest. Never heard of government delegating their rule-making to the private sector. Otherwise ANYBODY could "require" an SIC in their own airplane, and charge wannabees $20/hour to log ASEL land time ($35 for AMEL)...believe me, if this could be done, somebody would be doing it.

kbiermann

Thanks for all of the advice and input. I was 95% sure that the "or other operations" line in 61.55 did not apply to insurance reqs. but I figured it never hurts to ask. By the way Rickair, dont worry, I have not been scammed. I get paid for my time. Unlike some I wont pay for flight time and slave myself out just to get a few extra hours, all that does is help lower wages for everyone because management knows there is always someone willing to fly for next to nothing.