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Old 03-09-2006, 09:18 AM   #1  
satchmo
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Default Logging flight time

I have a question that no one seems to know the answer to. I am a commercial multi pilot w/instrument privelages. I fly a king air 90 under part 91. It is certificated for single pilot operations. There is a company policy that requires a co-pilot, which is myself. I understand that I can only log the time that I am the sole manipulator of the controls as PIC. My question is, can I log the other time as total time????? I know I can't log it as SIC but heard through the grapevine yesterday that either Alpine air or Ameriflight challenge the FAA and got a ruling in their favor that you can log the the total time of the flight towards your total time, but only that portion which you flew the plane as PIC. Any answers? thanx
 
Old 03-09-2006, 10:06 AM   #2  
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Well, since you're flying an aircraft that is certified as a Single-pilot, if you are not flying as PIC then you can not log that time, right seat in a single-pilot airplane gives you good experience, but it is not loggable time.

"I know I can't log it as SIC but heard through the grapevine yesterday that either Alpine air or Ameriflight challenge the FAA and got a ruling in their favor that you can log the the total time of the flight towards your total time, but only that portion which you flew the plane as PIC."

That statement doesn't make sense, because if you are flying PIC then of course you can log it. The problem is is that if you call 10 different FSDOs, you'll probably get 10 different answers.

Good Luck!

TG
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Old 03-09-2006, 11:32 AM   #3  
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sorry, if there was any confusion. Let's say the flight is 2 hrs in duration. Of those 2 hrs, I am at the controls for 1.5 of those hours. I know I can log those 1.5 as PIC but under the total duration of flight column in my log book, can I put 2.0 hrs? Can those 2.0 hrs count towards my total time or am I limited to just putting 1.5 hrs ?
 
Old 03-09-2006, 12:30 PM   #4  
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You can log anything you want, but the question is will the FAA and/or an airline or other potential employer give you credit for that time...

In my opinion: The safe bet is that total time must be either SIC or PIC. SIC is ONLY logable in an aircraft that is actually certified for two pilots. If it is certified for single or dual, you can always elect to fly dual pilots, enabling the SIC.

I don't know of any any airlines that give total time credit for FE or military backseaters either.

Most employers would be annoyed when they audit your logbook and find out that some of your claimed "total time" was really just an airplane ride.
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Old 03-09-2006, 01:13 PM   #5  
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I totally agree with you Rick. Sach, if you're making a two hour flight, why would you only fly 1.5 hours. I would recommend that if you have the hours and more importantly have been "blessed" by insurance. Then you and the other pilot ought to be changing seats after every leg. Sort of "spread the wealth" if you will. If you are low time, then the other pilot ought to be letting you fly to get your time up so that you can be covered under the insurance.

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Old 03-09-2006, 01:21 PM   #6  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tgaug6300
If you are low time, then the other pilot ought to be letting you fly to get your time up so that you can be covered under the insurance. TG
How would this time be logged then?
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Old 03-09-2006, 02:00 PM   #7  
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Rick and Tguag have it right. In your example part 91 allows that you can only log the time in which you are sole manipulator. You would log that time as both PIC and Total Duration of Flight. However, realize that if you are not PIC "responsible for the flight" most airlines will deduct that time from your total PIC. Airlines will still allow it as Total Duration of Flight, just not PIC time. When you fill out apps for airlines they will deduct all of your Dual Recieved time from your PIC time, because in their opinion, the instructor was PIC responsible for the flight. In your example you were sole manipulator of the controls for 1.5 hours of a 2.0 hour flight. You may log the 1.5 hours as PIC and Total Duration of Flight.

Note your log book doesn't have a column "Total Time". From the FAA's perspective "Total Time" doesn't exist. This is confused a lot. The column everyone is referring to is "Total Duration of Flight", with heavy accent on Flight. This is why all simulator or flight training device time can only be logged as Flight Simulator or Flight Training Device Time, and Dual Received, because it's not time which occurs in flight.

If your company is having you fly left seat as captain responsible for the flight, now that PIC time would be valued by airlines.

The FAA used to have a great FAQ document that you could download. It's been removed from the faa.gov site. This question was thoroughly covered in that document as it was constantly being asked.

That said, I do know AirNet effectively has (or used to have) a letter of authorization from the FAA that their pilots flying right seat in the Barons can log that time as SIC because their op specs, approved by the FAA, allow the use of a second pilot in AirNet's operations. But my understanding (which may be wrong) is you would have to fly that flight time while working for Airnet only. Ameriflight and Alpine Air may have a similar authorization.

Last edited by WEACLRS; 03-09-2006 at 02:13 PM.
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Old 03-09-2006, 05:39 PM   #8  
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Is the guy in the left seat an MEI? If he is you can log it as dual recieved.
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Old 03-10-2006, 06:53 AM   #9  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilotpip
Is the guy in the left seat an MEI? If he is you can log it as dual recieved.
Turns out you have to be careful now with that idea. Check out the thread "Commercial Checkride" in this Flight Training forum. The FAA requires that legitimate instructional activity be going on, not just time building. If you receive dual instruction, it must be dual instruction. So if the pilot was going through a required company checkout on the aircraft, fine, it's "dual recevied". However if it's just a routine flight from here to there and it just so happens that one of the pilots is an MEI, that doesn't mean both can claim PIC time by saying "we'll just call it dual received".
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Old 03-10-2006, 07:57 AM   #10  
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So does anyone have a solid answer to the question? I have the same problem in my logbook because I flew a lot in a Merlin which is right at the edge of 12,500 MTOW, but requires only 1 pilot. if for insurance reasons the aircraft requires 2 pilots. Wouldn't that be a gray area of a required crewmember in the FAR's? What I was thinking of doing was logging the total time for the duratin of the flight and PIC a little less only for the reason that if you're flying from the right seat the tiller is located on the left side which means there is no way you could be sole manipulator of controls? Any inputs?
 
 
 
 

 
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