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Old 03-07-2006, 02:37 PM   #1  
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Default Reporting Flight Time on Application

Can some of you guys shed some light on how to annotate flight time on an application? I'm a mil dude with mostly KC-135 and C-12 background. How do I determine my PIC time? For the tanker, I can start by taking my total tanker time and subtracting out my copilot time. Is this good enough or do I need to go further? For other aircraft, I have some FP time. Do I count it as PIC time? All my T-37 ACE (yes, I'm that old) time is listed as FP time but obviously some of that was PIC. Basically, I'm trying to make sure I don't short myself in this area (PIC time) on the application yet I don't want them to look at my AFORMS later and think I was trying to over inflate the numbers. Lastly, do I include the C-12 time as "transport" time or "tactical" or neither? Any suggestions/guidance would be appreciated.
 
Old 03-07-2006, 03:26 PM   #2  
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I would only claim PIC time if I was desegnated on the Flight Orders as Aircraft Commander. It's been a long time since for me though.

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Old 03-07-2006, 03:28 PM   #3  
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Don't know about military conversions per se, but any time in the KC135 (and other turbine equipment that require two crewmembers or more) that you served as Aircraft Commander would be listed as PIC (Right seat time where you were the flying pilot but not the AC would be listed as SIC).

For lighter aircraft, any time that you served either as the AC or flight instructor can be logged as PIC. IIRC the C-12 is the military equivalent of the King Air, correct? I would list that time simply as turbine. Most airlines aren't worried about transport or tactical time.

Don't know what FP time is (I'm former military, but was earth/desk bound during my time in the service...)

~Josh

Last edited by FlyerJosh; 03-07-2006 at 03:30 PM.
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Old 03-07-2006, 05:55 PM   #4  
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Mike is right. Generally most airlines are looking for FAR Part 1 PIC time (designated aircraft commander). As far as adding times together, that is usually airline specific. For example, SWA considers all time PIC after your upgrade (MP) to aircraft commander minus other time. If you have access to a Flying History Report you'd take Primary+Secondary+IP/EP+(.3xtotal sorties)=PIC Turbine (do not count other time).

I'm assuming you've flown with buddies from time to time with equal quals and you were not the "A" code. I've got some buds who have listed approximately 90% of their time from MP upgrade as PIC...this to account for those times listed above. I wish I would have kept an AF log book for this reason. It is somewhat frustrating since the AF does not track how many hours you have carried the "A".

Bottom line, it depends and you should probably call the HR department of whatever company you are interested in. Hope this might be of some help.
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Old 03-07-2006, 06:45 PM   #5  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10and2
If you have access to a Flying History Report you'd take Primary+Secondary+IP/EP+(.3xtotal sorties)=PIC Turbine (do not count other time).

.

Why do you have to throw away all other time? I've frequently flown with 3 pilots and on long legs I may get up and let the two co-pilots fly (monitor the autopilot). Even though I'm out of the seat I'm the A code and still making all decisions and they cant takeoff or land without me in the seat. As a result I have a lot of other time but I still count it towards PIC if I was the A code...

Toad, as for the question about C-12 time I had the same question. I ended up putting it in transport time b/c the only other option was civilian time and although its a civilian airplane you flew it in the military and they would define it as transport/cargo. I really dont think it matters b/c they ask you for the type aircraft so I'm sure they'll figure it out.

As for the PIC time that is a good question that I cannot get a good answer to either. I've heard the 90% technique or the use everything after MP upgrade but neither is exact and can vary significantly between airframes. For an airline that wants to know the time you logged as the A code I'm not sure if a wag is acceptable even if it is close...
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Old 03-07-2006, 07:17 PM   #6  
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So, I think what I'm gathering from all the replies is I just need to have a good rationale for whatever calculation method I use so I can justify it if questioned.

I too wish I had kept a civilian log book. Sure would make things a lot easier right now.

The C-12 I flew was the "J" model and is a Beach 1900C. Basically a stretch King Air.
 
Old 03-07-2006, 07:22 PM   #7  
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TipTip,
Check this out straight from the SWA website...

3Southwest Airlines defines "Pilot in Command" as the Pilot responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight. This definition is taken from PART I of the FAR. Southwest Airlines further allows logging of PIC as follows: For an aircraft requiring a type rating: If both pilots are type rated, the pilot in the left seat and sole manipulator of the controls may log PIC. If only one pilot is type rated only that pilot may log PIC, regardless of seat position. For aircraft not requiring a type rating: Only the pilot in the left seat and sole manipulator of the controls may log PIC. For military personnel, Southwest Airlines will allow flight time logged as "Pilot In Command" (PIC) only if you are the Captain/Aircraft Commander or Instructor Pilot. Primary time will only be considered PIC on a specific aircraft after an individual upgrades to Aircraft Commander in the appropriate aircraft. Time logged, as "Other Time" will not be considered. When converting taxi time a conversion factor of .3 or eighteen minutes, per leg/sortie should be used. These guidelines are imposed by Southwest Airlines for the purpose of standardizing the calculation of flight time.

I'm really only familar with SWA in the regards to "no other" time. If there are more companies out there with the same policy I'd love to know. I'm with you though man..spent many of hours myself monitoring CPs/FPs from the jump seat while in command. I do know that you can count your "other" time at FEDEX and UPS....not sure about others.
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Old 03-07-2006, 07:48 PM   #8  
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From other posts I've seen, your C-12 time = pic turbine for application purposes if you were the AC. Not sure of the category breakdown though (transport vs. tactical..etc.).
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Old 03-07-2006, 08:27 PM   #9  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10and2
TipTip,
Southwest Airlines further allows logging of PIC as follows: For an aircraft requiring a type rating: If both pilots are type rated, the pilot in the left seat and sole manipulator of the controls may log PIC.
So does this mean that a type rated first officer, acting as the flying pilot for the leg, but did not sign for the aircraft, can log PIC time for the purposes of the SWA application?
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Old 03-08-2006, 07:08 AM   #10  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10and2
TipTip,
Check this out straight from the SWA website...

3Southwest Airlines defines "Pilot in Command" as the Pilot responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight. This definition is taken from PART I of the FAR. Southwest Airlines further allows logging of PIC as follows: For an aircraft requiring a type rating: If both pilots are type rated, the pilot in the left seat and sole manipulator of the controls may log PIC. If only one pilot is type rated only that pilot may log PIC, regardless of seat position. For aircraft not requiring a type rating: Only the pilot in the left seat and sole manipulator of the controls may log PIC. For military personnel, Southwest Airlines will allow flight time logged as "Pilot In Command" (PIC) only if you are the Captain/Aircraft Commander or Instructor Pilot. Primary time will only be considered PIC on a specific aircraft after an individual upgrades to Aircraft Commander in the appropriate aircraft. Time logged, as "Other Time" will not be considered. When converting taxi time a conversion factor of .3 or eighteen minutes, per leg/sortie should be used. These guidelines are imposed by Southwest Airlines for the purpose of standardizing the calculation of flight time.

I'm really only familar with SWA in the regards to "no other" time. If there are more companies out there with the same policy I'd love to know. I'm with you though man..spent many of hours myself monitoring CPs/FPs from the jump seat while in command. I do know that you can count your "other" time at FEDEX and UPS....not sure about others.

Thanks for the clarification...I was going by FedEx's definition. They dont go that in depth but they pretty much say you have to be the aircraft commander of record. They dont appear to distinguish between seat positions or who else is qualified on the plane. So basically if I'm the AC "A code" but I head to the bunk room while we cross the Pacific and leave an EP in the seat I'm still the PIC
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