Go Back  Airline Pilot Central Forums > Airline Pilot Forums > Cargo
Reporting Flight Time on Application >

Reporting Flight Time on Application

Notices
Cargo Part 121 cargo airlines

Reporting Flight Time on Application

Old 03-07-2006, 01:37 PM
  #1  
TOAD
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Reporting Flight Time on Application

Can some of you guys shed some light on how to annotate flight time on an application? I'm a mil dude with mostly KC-135 and C-12 background. How do I determine my PIC time? For the tanker, I can start by taking my total tanker time and subtracting out my copilot time. Is this good enough or do I need to go further? For other aircraft, I have some FP time. Do I count it as PIC time? All my T-37 ACE (yes, I'm that old) time is listed as FP time but obviously some of that was PIC. Basically, I'm trying to make sure I don't short myself in this area (PIC time) on the application yet I don't want them to look at my AFORMS later and think I was trying to over inflate the numbers. Lastly, do I include the C-12 time as "transport" time or "tactical" or neither? Any suggestions/guidance would be appreciated.
 
Old 03-07-2006, 02:26 PM
  #2  
On Reserve
 
Mike767's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Posts: 13
Default

I would only claim PIC time if I was desegnated on the Flight Orders as Aircraft Commander. It's been a long time since for me though.

Mike
Mike767 is offline  
Old 03-07-2006, 02:28 PM
  #3  
Chief Jeppesen Updater
 
FlyerJosh's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: Executive Transport Driver
Posts: 3,080
Default

Don't know about military conversions per se, but any time in the KC135 (and other turbine equipment that require two crewmembers or more) that you served as Aircraft Commander would be listed as PIC (Right seat time where you were the flying pilot but not the AC would be listed as SIC).

For lighter aircraft, any time that you served either as the AC or flight instructor can be logged as PIC. IIRC the C-12 is the military equivalent of the King Air, correct? I would list that time simply as turbine. Most airlines aren't worried about transport or tactical time.

Don't know what FP time is (I'm former military, but was earth/desk bound during my time in the service...)

~Josh

Last edited by FlyerJosh; 03-07-2006 at 02:30 PM.
FlyerJosh is offline  
Old 03-07-2006, 04:55 PM
  #4  
New Hire
 
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: HUD Baby
Posts: 3
Default

Mike is right. Generally most airlines are looking for FAR Part 1 PIC time (designated aircraft commander). As far as adding times together, that is usually airline specific. For example, SWA considers all time PIC after your upgrade (MP) to aircraft commander minus other time. If you have access to a Flying History Report you'd take Primary+Secondary+IP/EP+(.3xtotal sorties)=PIC Turbine (do not count other time).

I'm assuming you've flown with buddies from time to time with equal quals and you were not the "A" code. I've got some buds who have listed approximately 90% of their time from MP upgrade as PIC...this to account for those times listed above. I wish I would have kept an AF log book for this reason. It is somewhat frustrating since the AF does not track how many hours you have carried the "A".

Bottom line, it depends and you should probably call the HR department of whatever company you are interested in. Hope this might be of some help.
10and2 is offline  
Old 03-07-2006, 05:45 PM
  #5  
Gets Weekends Off
 
TipTip35's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 257
Default

Originally Posted by 10and2
If you have access to a Flying History Report you'd take Primary+Secondary+IP/EP+(.3xtotal sorties)=PIC Turbine (do not count other time).

.

Why do you have to throw away all other time? I've frequently flown with 3 pilots and on long legs I may get up and let the two co-pilots fly (monitor the autopilot). Even though I'm out of the seat I'm the A code and still making all decisions and they cant takeoff or land without me in the seat. As a result I have a lot of other time but I still count it towards PIC if I was the A code...

Toad, as for the question about C-12 time I had the same question. I ended up putting it in transport time b/c the only other option was civilian time and although its a civilian airplane you flew it in the military and they would define it as transport/cargo. I really dont think it matters b/c they ask you for the type aircraft so I'm sure they'll figure it out.

As for the PIC time that is a good question that I cannot get a good answer to either. I've heard the 90% technique or the use everything after MP upgrade but neither is exact and can vary significantly between airframes. For an airline that wants to know the time you logged as the A code I'm not sure if a wag is acceptable even if it is close...
TipTip35 is offline  
Old 03-07-2006, 06:17 PM
  #6  
TOAD
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

So, I think what I'm gathering from all the replies is I just need to have a good rationale for whatever calculation method I use so I can justify it if questioned.

I too wish I had kept a civilian log book. Sure would make things a lot easier right now.

The C-12 I flew was the "J" model and is a Beach 1900C. Basically a stretch King Air.
 
Old 03-07-2006, 06:22 PM
  #7  
New Hire
 
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: HUD Baby
Posts: 3
Default

TipTip,
Check this out straight from the SWA website...

3Southwest Airlines defines "Pilot in Command" as the Pilot responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight. This definition is taken from PART I of the FAR. Southwest Airlines further allows logging of PIC as follows: For an aircraft requiring a type rating: If both pilots are type rated, the pilot in the left seat and sole manipulator of the controls may log PIC. If only one pilot is type rated only that pilot may log PIC, regardless of seat position. For aircraft not requiring a type rating: Only the pilot in the left seat and sole manipulator of the controls may log PIC. For military personnel, Southwest Airlines will allow flight time logged as "Pilot In Command" (PIC) only if you are the Captain/Aircraft Commander or Instructor Pilot. Primary time will only be considered PIC on a specific aircraft after an individual upgrades to Aircraft Commander in the appropriate aircraft. Time logged, as "Other Time" will not be considered. When converting taxi time a conversion factor of .3 or eighteen minutes, per leg/sortie should be used. These guidelines are imposed by Southwest Airlines for the purpose of standardizing the calculation of flight time.

I'm really only familar with SWA in the regards to "no other" time. If there are more companies out there with the same policy I'd love to know. I'm with you though man..spent many of hours myself monitoring CPs/FPs from the jump seat while in command. I do know that you can count your "other" time at FEDEX and UPS....not sure about others.
10and2 is offline  
Old 03-07-2006, 06:48 PM
  #8  
New Hire
 
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: HUD Baby
Posts: 3
Default

From other posts I've seen, your C-12 time = pic turbine for application purposes if you were the AC. Not sure of the category breakdown though (transport vs. tactical..etc.).
10and2 is offline  
Old 03-07-2006, 07:27 PM
  #9  
Chief Jeppesen Updater
 
FlyerJosh's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: Executive Transport Driver
Posts: 3,080
Default

Originally Posted by 10and2
TipTip,
Southwest Airlines further allows logging of PIC as follows: For an aircraft requiring a type rating: If both pilots are type rated, the pilot in the left seat and sole manipulator of the controls may log PIC.
So does this mean that a type rated first officer, acting as the flying pilot for the leg, but did not sign for the aircraft, can log PIC time for the purposes of the SWA application?
FlyerJosh is offline  
Old 03-08-2006, 06:08 AM
  #10  
Gets Weekends Off
 
TipTip35's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 257
Default

Originally Posted by 10and2
TipTip,
Check this out straight from the SWA website...

3Southwest Airlines defines "Pilot in Command" as the Pilot responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight. This definition is taken from PART I of the FAR. Southwest Airlines further allows logging of PIC as follows: For an aircraft requiring a type rating: If both pilots are type rated, the pilot in the left seat and sole manipulator of the controls may log PIC. If only one pilot is type rated only that pilot may log PIC, regardless of seat position. For aircraft not requiring a type rating: Only the pilot in the left seat and sole manipulator of the controls may log PIC. For military personnel, Southwest Airlines will allow flight time logged as "Pilot In Command" (PIC) only if you are the Captain/Aircraft Commander or Instructor Pilot. Primary time will only be considered PIC on a specific aircraft after an individual upgrades to Aircraft Commander in the appropriate aircraft. Time logged, as "Other Time" will not be considered. When converting taxi time a conversion factor of .3 or eighteen minutes, per leg/sortie should be used. These guidelines are imposed by Southwest Airlines for the purpose of standardizing the calculation of flight time.

I'm really only familar with SWA in the regards to "no other" time. If there are more companies out there with the same policy I'd love to know. I'm with you though man..spent many of hours myself monitoring CPs/FPs from the jump seat while in command. I do know that you can count your "other" time at FEDEX and UPS....not sure about others.

Thanks for the clarification...I was going by FedEx's definition. They dont go that in depth but they pretty much say you have to be the aircraft commander of record. They dont appear to distinguish between seat positions or who else is qualified on the plane. So basically if I'm the AC "A code" but I head to the bunk room while we cross the Pacific and leave an EP in the seat I'm still the PIC
TipTip35 is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Pilot41
Hangar Talk
13
12-01-2017 01:21 PM
rolo12
Major
8
07-30-2007 08:11 PM
UConnQB14
Flight Schools and Training
28
05-29-2006 07:16 PM
edik
Regional
4
04-25-2006 12:02 PM
satchmo
Flight Schools and Training
13
03-11-2006 12:52 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Your Privacy Choices