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Old 01-03-2011, 11:59 PM   #1  
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Default Reg change for logging PIC while with a CFI?

I have been told that the regs have changed in the 2011 FAR's regarding being able to log PIC time while with an instructor and logging dual received.

To make a long story short, I recently started renting a plane from a local FBO and beginning my CFI training (part 61). When I've gone on a couple of flights in their 172 to get checked out and learn to fly from the right seat the CFI refused to let me log it as PIC. He said due to a change in the regs only one person can log PIC - either me or him - and since he was logging it as PIC I am unable to do so. In the past I was always taught that as long as I was rated and had the proper endorsements both myself and the CFI could log the flight as PIC.

I decided to look it up in the regs for myself which left me even more confused. I found that there were indeed some changes to 61.51, but it seems vague whether logging PIC while with an instructor is allowed or not in my situation.

New regs:

(iv) When the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided—
(A) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command holds a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft being flown, if a class rating is appropriate;
(B) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command is undergoing an approved pilot in command training program that includes ground and flight training on the following areas of operation—
( 1 ) Preflight preparation;
( 2 ) Preflight procedures;
( 3 ) Takeoff and departure;
( 4 ) In-flight maneuvers;
( 5 ) Instrument procedures;
( 6 ) Landings and approaches to landings;
( 7 ) Normal and abnormal procedures;
( 8 ) Emergency procedures; and
( 9 ) Postflight procedures;
(C) The supervising pilot in command holds—
( 1 ) A commercial pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate, and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category, class, and type of aircraft being flown, if a class or type rating is required; or
( 2 ) An airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category, class, and type of aircraft being flown, if a class or type rating is required; and
(D) The supervising pilot in command logs the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook, certifies the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook and attests to that certification with his or her signature, and flight instructor certificate number.


Part B says that the 'student' must be "undergoing an approved pilot in command training program," so does this mean a 141 or other formal training program where an FAA approved syllabus allows the time to be logged as PIC? So therefore because I'm informally training (just learning to fly from the right seat, and practicing maneuvers), not necessarily even finishing my rating with this CFI or at this location, does that mean I cannot log the time as CFI?

Then part D says the supervising pilot in command (CFI in my case) certifies the PIC training in the logbook. Could this mean that it is up to the CFI's discretion whether to let me log it as PIC or not? Is this a place where a CFI could potentially 'screw' (for lack of a better word) students out of PIC time?

What are other CFI's doing and how do you interpret that? And is there an official interpretation showing that someone like myself that is somewhat informally working on a rating can log that time as both PIC and Dual Received? (I realize that the airlines and other employers may not actually 'count' this time as PIC, and I'm not worried about that at the moment, I'm just concerned with the legality of logging the time as PIC with the apparent change in regs). Or is there a different part of the regs other than 61.51 that makes logging this time illegal now according to the 2011 regs?
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Old 01-04-2011, 12:24 AM   #2  
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From my understanding, nothing has really changed. The part of the reg you didn't copy into here is:

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-
(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;"

On a checkout flight, you have a pilot certificate and are rated in the appropriate category and class of aircraft. On 99.9% of training flights, you are the sole manipulator of the controls during the flight. This has always been the wording that allows you to log PIC during training.

The part you quoted, to me it seems like a way of letting those training on higher performance aircraft to log PIC time. The stipulation to have at least a commercial is what makes me think that. I could be completely off base on that assumption though. But personally, I don't see why that was added when the above part of the reg has always been there.
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Old 01-04-2011, 01:28 AM   #3  
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As long as your rated in the aircraft and are flying which I would assume 99% of the time you are you can log PIC. The instructor would be logging dual given, and PIC.

Also as a suggestion you might consider asking your CFI to show you were in the regs he is getting his information. Use it as a learning experience, and If you really want you both could call the FSDO during a ground lesson and ask them. Any flight instructor worth their weight should have no problem showing you where they found it.
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Old 01-04-2011, 03:45 AM   #4  
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61.51(e)(1)(iv) is a new reg (October 2009). But it provides an =additional= basis for logging PIC. It doesn't remove the basic (e)(1)(i) sole manipulator with the appropriate aircraft ratings basis (note that little "or" between (iii) and (iv).

I'm going to take a WAG - your CFI either is or has listened to someone who never accepted the FAA's decision to allow PIC time to be counted in this way and has been looking for an excuse to say it's changed to fit their world view (people were saying this when sport pilot "privileges" was added to 61.51(e) a few years ago).

But no, it hasn't changed to reduce the ability of a pilot to log sole manipulator time. (e)(1)(iv) was added to allow logging PIC for certain training activities. Notice that it allows "performing the duties of PIC" without manipulation of the controls - essentially training for the duties of a captain in a 2-pilot crew where the "student" is performing the duties of captain supervising a "crew" with the "crew" doing the flying.

If you're interested in some research, you can read up on the changes here: http://frwebgate2.access.gpo.gov/cgi...ction=retrieve It's the Federal Register Final Rule that talks about the changes.

(Sometimes those links don't work. If not just go here Federal Register: Simple Search . Choose Volume 74 and put "61.51" in the search box (with the quotes).)

I agree with Der Meister about "show me the regs." But less about the "ask the FSDO" part. FSDO inspectors are notorious for passing on bad information in this area and the "someone who never accepted" your CFI may have listened to could very well be one of them.
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Old 01-04-2011, 07:10 AM   #5  
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In 1996 the FAA changed the reg (61.129) for COMM ME students to allow them to log PIC with an instructor because operators said their insurance would not allow the student to go solo for 10 hours. It took 13 years for the helicopter and powered lift and gyroplane schools to pile on and say they had the same problem under 61.129. The FAA finally said this fall any COMM student can log PIC with an instructor aboard in 61.129 even though they say it should have been clear under 61.51 that this was legal.
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Old 01-04-2011, 08:38 AM   #6  
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Just look at (d). The supervising pilot logs pic in his book as well in the other pilots book and uses their signature to certify the training. Clear as mud to me
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Old 01-04-2011, 10:27 AM   #7  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twin Wasp View Post
In 1996 the FAA changed the reg (61.129) for COMM ME students to allow them to log PIC with an instructor
Not really. 61.129 isn't a logging reg so it neither permits or prohibits logging*.

What that amendment did was to allow flight with an instructor while "preforming the duties" to substitute for 61.129's solo flight requirement. Maybe it needs clarification by the FAA, but there's nothing in 61.51 that permits the commercial trainee to log PIC time in this situation.

* Just a point of information on reading this stuff: any time you talk about a reg other than 61.51 allowing logging flight time, there's a better than 90% chance that you're wrong.
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Old 01-04-2011, 12:45 PM   #8  
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I agree with NGDI. Screw the CFI, fill in the flight time in your PIC column.

But you might want to look at the other thread about logging actual in-charge PIC vs. other types of PIC.
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Old 01-04-2011, 01:12 PM   #9  
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Ok, in 1995 the FAA changed the rules to allow PIC under supervision to count toward the 10 solo hours required for a COMM ME certificate. The rule change this fall allowed PICUS to count for any COMM training. 61.51 was changed this fall to clarify that you can record this training in your logbook.

Revised 61.51(e)(1)(iv) will allow a pilot performing the duties of a pilot in
command (PIC) while under the supervision of a qualified PIC to log PIC
flight time. The FAA is making this revision to provide another way for
commercial pilot certificate or airline transport pilot certificate holders to log
PIC flight time.
...
This revision parallels and further clarifies the provisions in revised 61.129 and
existing 61.31(d), 61.159(a)(4), 61.161(a)(3), and 61.163(a)(3) for PIC
aeronautical experience.
AOPA supported the concept, but believed the proposed rule was unclear
and would lead to confusion.

Ya think?
...
Four commenters asserted the proposed provisions are unnecessary, as
pilots acting as PIC under supervision are already permitted to log PIC flight
time under other sections of the regulations.
r..Date Nov<24>2008 16:38 Aug 20, 2009 Jkt 217001 PO 00000 Frm 00016 Fmt 4701 Sfmt 4700 E:\FR\FM\21AUR2.SGM 21AUR2 srobinson on DSKHWCL6B1PROD with RULES2

A pilot may log PIC flight time when performing the duties of the PIC while
under the supervision of the 1.1 PIC. The FAA believes the rule is abundantly
clear that a person may log PIC flight time when performing the duties of the
PIC while under the supervision of the PIC, provided both the person who is
performing the duties of the PIC and the supervising PIC meet the requirements
of the rule.

I guess the Feds don't spend any time reading web pages.

I would say when a reg, such as 61.129(a), tells you you "must log ... flight time" it covers what goes into your logbook. As they say, the revision to 61.51 was supposed to make it clearer that 61.129 and 61.51(e)(iv) go hand in hand.

Last edited by Twin Wasp; 01-04-2011 at 01:39 PM.
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Old 01-04-2011, 04:18 PM   #10  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twin Wasp View Post
As they say, the revision to 61.51 was supposed to make it clearer that 61.129 and 61.51(e)(iv) go hand in hand.
But they don't. 61.51(e)(iv) requires that the pilot already be rated for the aircraft.


==============================
(iv) When the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided--
(A) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command holds a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft being flown, if a class rating is appropriate;
==============================

The Commercial ME applicant generally doesn't already have a commercial certificate and an ME rating.
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