Twin Wasp

I saw that too. So you're covered if you have a COMM SE and a PVT ME since it doesn't say COMM or ATP with the category and class.

NoyGonnaDoIt

We're apparently looking at two different things. The (e)(iv) I'm looking at does says COMM or ATP with the category and class as a condition of logging PIC under that provision:

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commercial or airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft being flown
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Bellanca

Thanks for clarifying everything. Since it seems the overall consensus is that nothing has really changed (at least in my scenario), I'll probably just add the time in my PIC column.

I did ask the CFI to point it out in the regs, and he just said it was in a new 2011 FARs and said he didn't have a FAR/AIM with him (lame excuse imo), and then went off on some long tangent about how the airlines won't accept that as PIC time anyways, and claimed that they would view me as a 'cheater' when they see my logbook and other stuff along those lines.

When I talked to my airline friends they acted like he was over-exaggerating, at least the part where airlines would view it as cheating to log it. I figure I will log it according to what is legal with the FAA and employers can take it for what it is. I hate to skip out on logging hours that might count towards insurance minimums, ATP, etc.

Bellanca

While some of you are on the topic of commercial multi students logging PIC with an instructor before they have a multi rating, do you know if that PIC time counts towards the 15 hours of multi PIC required for MEI?

I had talked to someone an examiner in Maryland and someone at the Baltimore FSDO and they both said it did not count. Yet I know people who have taken MEI checkrides other places and those 10 hours counted towards their 15 hour requirement, even people who did their MEI as their initial instructor rating with an FAA examiner. NoyGonnaDoIt seems to be totally right about people at FSDOs lol.

NoyGonnaDoIt

Two true stories:

I was on a business trip to San Francisco and headed up to Sonoma to see about checking out in an airplane. A group of CFIs were talking about a pilot meeting the evening before at which a FSDO inspector insisted that, while either the CFI or the rated trainee could log PIC only one of them could and they had to choose.

The FSDO in Buffalo NY used to have a web page. On it they published that every leg of a student pilot cross country needed to be >50 NM in order to count. I think there was a mass email campaign and it was removed within a week.

That's not a slam on FAA inspectors. The ones I've met have been generally knowledgeable and professional. But some of this stuff is not exactly the most important think on their radar and there are knowledge gaps with them as much as with anyone else.

NoyGonnaDoIt

I can't answer that one - I personally don't see where a commercial multi student who does not already have a multi on his private can log PIC except when solo.

BTW, FWIW, I think you should be a little concerned about CFI instruction from an instructor who has a poor grasp of the rules dealing with training and what may le logged toward certificate and rating requirements. Hopefully, his instruction is strong in other areas and you know how to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Ewfflyer

In this scenario, you would be logging illegally. You can't log PIC if you aren't even rated yet. That would definatley raise the red flag for me.

The same is true if you had your multi, flew in a king-air, and logged PIC if you didn't have a high-alt endorsement.

Fly Boy Knight

"(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-

(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;

To the OP:

What I would do is print out the latest version of 14 CFR 61.51(e)(i) or take the new 2011 FARAIM to the CFI who said he wouldn't allow u to log it as PIC and explain the situation to him. Following what was said before, the CFI probably didn't actually read the newly worded rule for him/herself and is just going off of what he heard or was told (NEVER a good idea when concerning FARs).

If this doesn't work and the CFI still refuses to let you log it as PIC w/ his instructor signature on the dual time, go to his supervisor/chief instructor and explain the situation.

rotorhead1026

I think Bellanca is referring to the "supervised PIC" provision. I don't have FAR's handy either (yeah, another lame excuse ), but this was set up to allow a primary student getting his first license in a multiengine f/w airplane to log "solo" time, IIRC. (No insurance company would sign off on "real" solo). 61.129 (b) (4)

The reg says such time can be used to satisfy the solo flight time requirement, but is silent otherwise. It says the same thing for actual solo flight time as well, though, so the honest answer is, "I dunno for sure". Just because a FSDO says yes or no doesn't make it so. AOPA used to have some people who were quite knowledgeable on this stuff. It's really rare for someone to go for their multi first (primary training scenario), but not unheard of. I didn't even know about it until a couple of years ago (through this board, actually). It's not a good thing (which could explain the FSDO's attitude), but I see the practical necessity - somewhat.

Fly Boy Knight

At our flight school about 3 years ago, we had a group of Panamanian Flight Students come through our Commercial Multi program when all of them had just a Private Single in Panama. Since we didn't have a 141 syllabus for that, they did it 61 all in the seminole but our insurance company put the squash on them flying our seminoles solo for 10 hrs so we had to do the "supervised solo" thing.

Since then, they have gotten a 141 Commercial AMEL (initial) syllabus approved (meant for students with just private ASEL and Instr. only) in addition to the Commercial ASEL and AMEL Add on to the Commercial ones however, I believe that the students must do 10 hrs of "supervised solo" due to the insurance company even though it is 141 as well.