GogglesPisano

The solution isn't indentured servitude. The solution is sweetening the compensation package and allowing to market to work.

Cubdriver

We are talking about costs that are particular to any company that conducts flying for profit, say a Part 135 operation using twin Cessnas to deliver boxes in southern Oklahoma, not the more general costs associated with educating and certifying a pilot for such work. Since when should any small business not expect to have to pay the costs of running their particular type of business? The oversupply of pilots has led to all sorts of dubious arrangements for pilot training in the past and this another one of them.

drjones

If you breached the contract abide by your word and pay up. If your employer breached the contract fight it. Don't sign something you don't agree to comply with. It is simply personal responsibility.

USMCFLYR

There is not a businessman worth their salt that is going to invest the money required for pilot training and not get their return on investment. So many pilots on here talk about what business sense they have and yet then complain about training contracts. Cubdriver - you would suggest that I quite my current job rather than sign a training contract then huh? My former and current situation makes me laugh at any suggestion of NEVER signing a training contract. It just isn't that cut and dry.

Goggles - not every training contract comes from some company looking for 'indentured servitude'. If that is what you believe then your focus is very narrow.

Packrat

On the other hand, what businessman is going to incur thousands of dollars in legal fees to recover a couple grand from an questionably enforceable training contract?

None, that's how many.

Cubdriver

Sure there are, most of the companies take that risk, and only a minority of flying companies use pilot training contracts. I am not against contracts, I am against unfair ones. If you can get your lawyer to include the proper clauses to insure fair and equitable provisions are there for you, then sure do it. But in the real world, what pilot does that? None. In the real world, naive pilots sign these things with no idea what they are getting into and they are later sorry. The unfairly written contracts that are designed to give power and options to the company, not the other way around.

Jones, I am not arguing that if you sign something you should not be responsible for what you signed, I am arguing not to sign one of these things in the first place because they are not written fairly for the pilot. They are written by company lawyers for company purposes, to give the upper hand to the company, and no pilot should sign one without consulting a lawyer and asking what happens if they get sued. In addition, I assure you no company is going to allow you to change their contract to make it more fair to you.

PackRat- Unfortunately, companies would rather sue in many cases than drop the case, and the same goes for the pilot, they would rather defend than pay. Both sides lose a lot of time and money this way and yet it remains common.

JamesNoBrakes

Heck, if you have a full time lawyer or some kind of corporate insurance, it's possibly minimal cost to the company and although a pilot and good lawyer may be able to fight it, it's probably never worth it (unless you happen to be a lawyer yourself).

I think one reason this comes up so often is due to shady companies that ask pilots to routinely violate duty days and fly in conditions or airplanes that are not safe. They can always leverage the training contract against them and then if they flat out refuse to fly in said conditions and get fired, they come after them. Those companies need to go away IMO, but as long as they can still find bodies it's a "viable business".

mike734

Never underestimate the stupidity of managers in the airplane world. Egos drive many decisions. I've seen companies spend hundreds of thousands to save thousands. Mesa comes to kind.

TheFly

If you signed the contract, agreeing that you would pay it back, they why wouldn't it be. Not saying I agree or disagree, but you gave your word by signing a contract that you would pay the company back if you broke the agreement.

Now, whether or not they choose to spend more time and money (that they know you don't have) trying to enforce that contract is a different story.

Just sayin'.

Fly Boy Knight

The practice of having training contracts is a whole other topic than the topic of whether a training contract should be honored / can be enforced. Apparently there are a lot of financially irresponsibly thinking people out there so I'm gonna run the risk of offending some of them to say what needs to be said.

1st: If you read a contract, actually read it! Write spark notes if you must but know what the heck you are signing and EXACTLY what you are agreeing to. Companies have lawyers (....people who WRITE THESE THINGS FOR A LIVING!!!!) writing their contracts so... you might wanna give a run through or two. Heck, if you deem it a prudent investment, hire a lawyer and have him/her read it before you decide. Whatever you do, KNOW WHAT YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR!

2nd: If you don't like it, change the contract to suit your tastes. This may not be easy in a business world if you lack a business sense but if you don't talk to them about it, you'll never know. Remember, a contract is a MUTUAL agreement so you have to propose things that are of BENEFIT to each party. You might have to offer up something else for them (ie. maybe raise the amount you are responsible for in exchange for a "Loss of Medical Claus" (you get out of the contract if you lose your medical / can't be a pilot anymore). Remember, if you are inexperienced / a first time pilot applicant, you do not have much more to offer so you will have to be creative in the ways you go back and forth with your prospective employer and, if you are simply unable to agree with the contract as written and the employer will not budge, well then just like an over-priced car at a dealership, you have to genuinely be willing to WALK AWAY from the deal to protect yourself! The term for this exchange of reasonable contract points / stipulations for the mutual benefit of the parties involved is called "negotiating" and it is how business is done between two reasonable, freely acting individuals/groups.

3rd: If after all of the "step 2" stuff above, you decide the contract is good enough (for whatever reasons you deem satisfactory), if you sign a contract, for heck sack be a man (woman) of your word and honor it. Daily life / an extreme desire to be a pilot is NOT grounds for being coerced or being under duress so don't be a hypocrite (demanding your company provide you with xxx and then welching on your word to honor an agreement YOU agreed to with them). The free market economy is simply the rational dealings between reasonable and responsible individuals and if you wish to participate in the free market (ie. have a private sector job), then you have to accept the consequences of your actions otherwise, you will not succeed in the free market.

If you can't fulfill your contractual obligations RIGHT NOW at this moment due to being fired / whatever reasons, well then you deal with your situation and when you are back on your feet, honor your word and fulfill it. If you have no money, well then you have no money, but if you are simply trying to get out of a contract you agreed to, well then see the above 3 points.

I have signed 3 training contracts and I haven't welched on any of them and I came very close to violating one for hopes of a better job I thought I was going to have. I knew when I signed all of them that if I quit, lost my medical, or got fired, I would still be responsible for the (in this case) pro-rated amount of the contract and, as a responsible contributing member of society, I was more than ready to fulfill my contractual obligations. Same with my student loans, car payments, etc. Just because it is pilot job training doesn't make it an exception to the "Being Responsible" rule. It doesn't matter if the contract is "enforceable" or not, don't be a jerk and be a man (woman) of your word. Your word is all you have. Don't squander it!

Again, I run the risk of offending people with this posting but honestly, I take great pride in being responsible and even though I know 1st time pilot employers do it mainly for their advantage, my disagreement with the practice of using training contracts does NOT give me the moral high ground to welch on my word.

Anyways, to the OP, I do not have much familiarity with which states / circumstances give more force behind a training contract. From my experience, our company didn't really go after pilots who welched on the contract. They used it more as a deterrent to give people pause before they quit 3 weeks out of training vs as a means to actually recover their investment. Our company required an initial contract and another contract at each airplane transition (varying amounts / term lengths). I know of a few people who welched and nothing happened to them (yet) but I don't know of any specific events where the company went after a pilot for the remaining amount. I have read on this forum a bunch of different aspects that may contribute to the enforceability of a contract but, in the end, I really do believe it is the company that matters most (and whether or not they wish to press a pilot for their contracted amount)