FullyInvolved

Are there extra "side" activities, aviation related or not, that help people in the hiring process for the majors/legacies?

Sliceback

Safety, training, union volunteering, recruiting, mentoring, are mentioned as possible pluses.

PrettyFlyGuy

Disclosure: I do not fly for the airlines nor do I plan to but who knows. I'm trying to have some fun while I'm young and take jobs that will provide good stories for me while on my death bed.
So not sure if this helps but I am very close to your age and was a medic for a few years out of high school. Worked nights in the E.R. and on call on the bus for the FD. While working full time I slowly paid cash for all my training which makes it much cheaper so if you can negotiate a much lower cash rate do it. I kind of took my time as my father flew for a major and tried to talk me out of flying as a career so it took me awhile to just push forward myself. Its definitely harder doing it on the side but having no debt when your finished is an amazing feeling. In my opinion you could make more over the long term as a FF since it will take a long time to make what you are now and that money could be invested in lots of things to make you even more money(rental property, side business etc) since the pay seems to be a big consideration of going to a major airline career. I own 6 rentals myself and at this rate I will be able to retire before I even need to go to a major anyway. At our department most guys seemed to hit lieutenant and even captain in 15 years or less and were pushing 150k. So maybe you are at a small department and can transfer to a higher paying gig. And keep in mind that going to a major doesn't just happen and everything you read on here and in the news cant be used to make a career decision. Also there are many days I watch the medevac land and see the crews working and it takes me back to how awesome the job can be so the grass is always greener. Boeing and all the other companies have skin in the game and publish what they need to keep future pilots coming and keep business booming. Also the Envoy recruiters need new hires so they can flow so they just say what they need to get new guys to show up. There really is no shortage. I do agree with Kevbo that 80k at 23 is way better than 200k at 55. As a kid whose dad chased the major airline job commuting endlessly changing bases he missed my entire childhood and once he was 60 making the big bucks his kids were all gone and my mom was worn out. So at that point money doesn't matter. Just think that once you finish you wont hit 80k again for a long time unless you want to work 25 days a month. So enjoy your 20 days off. I really hope this makes sense I just woke up and not sure if it came out right. Either way both jobs are pretty awesome and good luck!

Sliceback

Dont focus on getting your degree paid by the city. Focus on gettting your flying done ASAP if that's your real goal.

Time wasted costs you approx $15,000 and 50-70 numbers per month. Each year is $180K and 600-800 numbers. The seniority number alone is a HUGE difference.

Two yrs of training followed by a eight yr flow would have you making $180,000 in 15 yrs (today's salaries).

I took $125,000 x 42 yrs to estimate your career earnings. You'll make as much in your final 20 yrs at a major airline. Any regional time, or more than 20 yrs at a major, is gravy.

The shortage is real. Today? At the majors? No. But the supply chain is frayed. Pay is climbing and anyone with 1500 hrs and a pulse is getting hired by a regional. Starting pay has tripled(???) in 3-4 yrs. $50K+?

It's deciding what your long term goal is. If it's flying for a major time is worth about $20 hr, every single hour 24/7/365, for every hour delayed getting hired by a major.

Sliceback

That's somewhat poorly written. You've got two great choices. Your 20 days off also allows you to fly a lot. It's worth it. At some point, if you want to give fly for a living a real shot, you'll need to go whole hog and focus on what improves your resume vs the dollar impact.

I got 140-160 (?) hrs of training time in six months. Already had the commercial/instrument written out of the way. That was PP to CFI and ME rating. So if you hustle you might be able to knock out all your licenses and ratings by the end of 2018 and start your flying career in early 2019. If you can knock it out that fast it will be a hard, crazy, but rewarding effort.

FullyInvolved

PrettyFlyGuy, thanks for the reply! Always nice to hear from somebody who's been in public safety. I agree, I think they're both great careers. If I was currently flipping burgers or making $40k at Small Town FD, I wouldn't think twice about going all in for the airline route, but it's just hard to think about leaving such a stable (and honestly, easy) job. But I'm sure as you know firsthand, I love my job but I'm already tired of waking up in the middle of the night for BS EMS calls.

Sliceback, I know I need to get in ASAP, but I guess I didn't realize exactly how important it is. I'm working with a good instructor but I'm not getting to fly as much as I want...I may need to consider trying to go to a bigger school where I can fly more often. ATP Flight School is seriously tempting ("6 months" they say from Zero-to-"Hero") but I just can't do it.

When I weigh my options between ATP Flight School and staying at the FD and doing it on my off days, it's basically either going $80k+ into debt and quitting the FD versus finishing my flight training completely debt free, respectively.

How important is working with one specific instructor? I think I can seriously pick up the pace of training (literally almost 20 days a month) if I go to a bigger school and am willing to work with multiple instructors. I just feel like an instructor/student relationship is important.

And as far as building time, do airlines care if your 1500hrs are mainly from instructing or if it's just plain flying around? The reason I ask is I have enough saved I can pay cash for an IFR Cessna 150 or something and try to get my certifications/ratings ASAP and then just fly for hours and hours each day I'm off to help build time to 1500.

Thank you again all for taking the time out to reply and help. I sincerely appreciate it, ladies and gents.

Sliceback

1500 hrs and a pulse gets you hired should get you hired at a regional. Suit, haircut, smile, goes a long way.

You'll be a better pilot if you're a CFI. Being a weaker pilot ISN'T a good idea going into a regional airline training program. Put everything in your favor vs trying to take shortcuts. Starting your career out with a training bust, or getting fired, would be a tragedy.

What's a 150 cost per hour? $50? That's $60,000 you'd have to fork over in 18 months to get to 1500 hrs vs getting paid $40K(1.5 yrs CFI pay?) If you had your FF job every single net dollar would go into flying. A CFI job would get you the time for free and you'd get to keep the net pay as well as getting you better prepared for your future.

More important the then the student/instructor relationship, which is important, is the quality of your training and the time delay. And you learn different things from different instructors. On the civilian side, through my comm/instr, I primarily flew with one CFI...and then he left. USAF? First 19 dual flights was restricted to two IP's. Next 23 training flights? Ten instructors! Once you learn the basics the USAF decides an instructor is an instructor. T-38's was the same, two IP's for the early portion, then 8 IP's after the basics were over. Think you have much of a student/instructor relationship when you fly with a guy once or twice? Nah. Learning objectives defined, briefed, demonstrated, flown by student, debriefed. Next.

That doesn't mean you might get a bad apple as an instructor. Don't accept that. At a professional and well run school the mgt shouldn't tolerate poor performance. You probably won't be the first student to complain. I learned and logged time which got me closer to my goals with guys that weren't my preferred guys to fly with. It's about advancing the ball.

FullyInvolved

Thank you, Sliceback. I started looking at some different schools and got to thinking of possibly a different approach:

I can keep working as a FF and have an income...but instead of going to ATP Flight School, I can go through some fast track schools around here. They're advertising 2 weeks for PPL, 10 days for instrument, etc. Very, VERY fast paced. They say they can get you from Zero-to-CFII in 16-18 weeks. I could make this work with my schedule. I could take 2 weeks off for PPL, work a week, take 10 days off for instrument, etc.

I have enough saved I can pay cash for all of it through CFI so I wouldn't have to take out a loan or anything...but it's going to certainly put a big hit on my savings.

Any thoughts on this approach? I feel like I could potentially get to CFI very quickly. The only thing that concerns me is how additional time would work with these schools...I'm sure they'd just charge you an airplane + instructor rate for additional time. Like you said, I wouldn't want to take a checkride unless I felt confident. I know a lot say initial checkride failures aren't career ending but I want to keep my slate as clean as possible. I like the idea of going balls to the wall and getting to CFI so I can start instructing and building time to get on with a regional. I could do this and potentially be done around 18 weeks (maybe a few weeks longer as I'd have to work a few shifts in that time frame).

FullyInvolved

My current school is saying it would take about 1.5 to 2 years to get to CFI. That's an okay pace, I reckon, but if getting on ASAP is that important, perhaps the fast-track route is a better choice.

Sliceback

18 months seems reasonable.

Getting all your ratings in 18 weeks seems crazy. What schools are offering that? Why don't the full time schools offer that?

I guess it took me about 9-10 months to get to 250 hrs (CFI/MEL). 40+ weeks. I have a hard time understanding how they do it in 16-18 weeks.

For example an instrument rating requires 40 hrs of instrument training. To achieve that in 10 days requires 4 hrs of instrument training a day. That's probably exhausting.

I max'd out at 29 flights in a month. Followed by 20 and 17 flight months. That fast track program is talking about doing 1.5 to 2 months of flying in 10 days. Ouch.