JohnBurke

It was a rhetorical question, because there is no such thing as a "141 university." While a university may have a college or department for aviation, and that college or department may have a 141 authorization, it's not a 141 university, as there's no such thing. When the original poster talks of maintaining a low grade at a college, but then earning a higher grade at a "141 university," it is both misleading, and indicative of some ignorance on the subject.

This is significant in the context of the question because the original poster is talking about doing poorly with flight training, failing three practical tests for initial certification or ratings, and at the same time referring to doing well in flight school

While one could break down a transcript and attempt to explain away why one did well in one subject and poorly in another, most employers care about the overall GPA and aren't looking for excuses. None want to hear "I did okay here, not so okay there, really terrible there, and had a bit of an upswing here." Eyes glaze over long before then. Nobody wants to hear it, so unless they specifically ask, don't try. There is no mechanism in a resume or cover letter for such an explanation, and it won't be found in a job application.

The original poster stands about as much chance as anyone at attaining a position; it may take longer, or it may not, and as others have noted, it may never happen. A great many pilots don't work for the major airlines; some because they can't, some because they don't want to, and some just don't get a shot. That's life. Life doesn't end with the majors.

Someone disparaged ACMI carriers; there are ACMI captains earning several hundred thousand dollars a year. The company buys them a ticket to work and home. They ride a couple of times a month, have two weeks off, get put up in good hotels, fly internationally with lower stress, work in a relaxed environment, and enjoy considerable free time even when at work. They don't jump seat. They don't have to commute every two or three days. Life is good. Other ACMI pilots make less money, but still enjoy the same kind of life, and for some it's objectionable, for others it's the great unspoken secret and they love the job. For some it's comfortable. For some it's not, and for some, it's a stepping stone. It is what it is. There are a lot of jobs in aviation beside major airlines.

I've had jobs flying single engine airplanes making six figures with five or six months off a year, in a very relaxed job doing something I enjoyed...there are choices out there, some good, some better, some best avoided. Pick the poison that best suits and have a ball.

The original poster is talking about things that happened nearly two decades ago, and he or she has time on the job since, apparently with a good track record that should speak for itself. If the original poster had been busted for drug possession last year and had just slogged through school and failed a stack of checkrides, that might be a different matter. My counsel would be to get some solid work experience under his or her belt, let the record do the talking and soldier on. The original poster has already done all that, has the working experience, and is soldiering on. Were I to interview the subject, I'd be interested in whether they could do the job now, not in whether their skills were effective fifteen or twenty years ago. I don't care about fifteen or twenty years ago. I don't care about six or ten or twenty thousand hours in the logbook. Show me the last hour. Show me the next. I'll know most of what I need to know about a pilot before we ever get to a simulator, to an aircraft, and what I see in either one will only confirm it.

Certainly there are jobs which will never allow a blemished candidate to get past the front door. There are many others which will: the original poster is working now, and apparently displaying no difficulty in doing so. More PIC turbine time is warranted, continuing to gain experience is appropriate, but it shouldn't stop him or her from putting out resumes and applications, testing the waters, and seeing what comes back.

It's good and well to opine about it here, and to ask "do you think I'll make it?" It's better to put the applications out there and find out. All the conjecture in the world won't lead to a single job offer.

What anyone here says pales in the face of what an employer will offer or withhold. You can look at Mt. Everest all you want, even read the books and watch the movies. It won't get you one foot closer to the summit. The path to the top, however, is well known. The only way there is to get out and climb.

Elevation

It doesn't hurt to apply. I have friends with similar skeletons and numerous busts who have been picked up by FedEx. Another crashed four different light aircraft and is now a captain at a legacy. Like someone else said, there are plenty with clean records and accolades who aren't being called. My interpretation: the system isn't logical. Otherwise there'd be a discernible pattern to hiring and we could predict to within a month or so of when everyone will be hired. The dirty truth is that there is no plan or pattern to any of this mess.

I used to stress out since I looked decent on paper (in real life I'm a schmuck.) but I wasn't getting anywhere. I wish I could time travel and tell myself not to worry so much.

Just apply and don't worry. Keep applying and keep not worrying.

PotatoChip

I know it was rhetorical, but I wanted to give a real answer to prove what a condescending a$$ you would be. Chess not checkers.

smc2020

I agree.....found out over the years that there is sometimes no reason as to why some are hired and some are not.

MOGuy

Has anyone actually done a self FBI background check? Any idea if what shows up there is only what the airlines can see? I just did finger prints and sent off for one but said it can take up to 4 months to return results. I had an Minor in Posession of Alcohol 2000, noise violation in 2003, and property damage in 2004 in my very early 20's. 37 now but wanted to see if they would turn up or if those are some things I could leave off my application.

Hacker15e

Remember, when applications are asking about infractions (especially the traffic tickets, but the other stuff too) it is mostly an integrity check.

Pretty much every applicant has bad marks, and the interviewers know this. The infractions themselves -- unless they paint a very specific picture of repeated irresponsibility or criminal activity -- aren't generally going to exclude someone from getting a call to interview.

What they're far more concerned with is finding out surprises on the background check that weren't self-reported on the application. That is an instantaneous and irredeemable elimination from consideration for hire.

So, the general guidance is to over-share on the application rather than under-share. It is better to self-report something that doesn't end up popping up on the background check than the other way around, because chances are that self-reporting it on the app isn't going to eliminate you from consideration.

Bottom line: if you know about it, don't leave it off the application, even if you think there's no way the background check can find it.

rickair7777

The conventional wisdom is don't lie about anything because if they ever find out they can fire you. Especially at a major, where you could have decades of seniority on the line.

If I had to guess, the first two probably not, and airlines wouldn't really be too bothered by those anyway.

Property damage might show up depending on how serious, and airlines would definitely care about. The first two are youthful fun. The last is malicious.

JohnBurke

A "FBI background check" can be had for a few bucks from your local PD, sheriff's office, or state BCI (bureau of criminal investigation), depending on who handles it. It's simple, inexpensive, and is quick. A NCIC database check (national crime information computer) with a III (criminal history) and wants check covers it. There's nothing else to turn up, so far as that goes. That does NOT constitute a background check, however, and the airlines don't so much more than a superficial one, either. You can also obtain a copy of your driver history, credit checks, etc. It's easy to do, and you should know what's in "jacket."

MOGuy

I understand disclosing but I also want to be as accurate as possible. Are you saying that if it doesn't turn up on the NCIC check it could show up on a background check? I've paid for one of those as well and they don't show there which is what prompted me to send in for the full FBI background check.

JohnBurke

When you say you "sent in," what do you mean, and what do you think a "full FBI background check" is?

I very much doubt you're getting a "background check."

The national crime information computer is maintained by the FBI, and a criminal history ("III" or "triple I") check comes through NCIC.

The NCIC only contains what individual units have submitted, whether local, county, district, state, or federal. In other words, if you committed a crime in a particular jurisdiction and it wasn't uploaded to the NCIC, the record won't be there.

You won't get a "FBI background check," because you don't merit that level of effort and attention; what you're looking for is simply your record. This is the same record that comes up when a law enforcement dispatch center runs a wants and records check if you're detained or pulled over; a quick check using your vitals (date of birth, ssn, d/l number, sex, and specific discriminators to eliminate false returns: height, hair color, eye color, weight, etc). If you've ever had fingerprints entered into NCIC, these can be checked as well to further verify identity, and also verify that the identify information you've provided it true and correct.

A "wants check" is performed, looking for outstanding warrants or other reasons that you might be wanted. When a law enforcement officer looks at this, he wants to know if you have anything outstanding for which he may need to cite or effect an arrest; he also wants to know if your history involves things that should concern him such as violent behavior, a history of drugs, etc, and may want this information to verify that you're being truthful.

An employer is interested in essentially the same things; chiefly that you're being truthful and forthright in your statement.

A typical "background check" only looks back a few years: 5, 7, or 10 years, depending on the check; NCIC history, however, is a lifetime number, and will record offenses uploaded as long they've been put into the database.

For a number of years, not all states belonged to the "driver compact," which was an agreement between states to share driver information. One could actually have a suspended license in one state, but it would be unknown if you were pulled over and a check made in another state. Likewise, not all states uploaded to NCIC, for various reasons. At one time it was actually possible to be guilty of various felonies or capital crimes in one state and be unknown in another state. Virtually all those loopholes and gaps are closed now, but there was a time when certain jurisdictions didn't enter into NCIC, and in many cases local matters do not get uploaded to NCIC. If you've had matters come up before a local court, it's possible that there's no record.

As you mentioned background checks, they're an entirely different ballgame. The degree of effort involved in a background check varies; the most cursory (typical for airlines) involves a look at your driver record, criminal history, credit history, etc, and may also look at school transcrips and other data. This isn't really a background check, either.

A true background check will involve calling former employers, sending enquiries, interviews, fingerprints, and multiple searches. Actual background checks involve interviewing people who knew you, verifying all the data that you've submitted, looking into your banking information, visiting former neighbors, associates, landlords, etc, and interviewing them. As noted before, someone who is simply wanting to see their records isn't going to be getting a background check from the FBI or anybody else. The cost of conducting a background check starts around 80,000 dollars and goes up from there. It's typical for someone seeking a security clearance of Top Secret and above, and takes about a year to complete. More detailed ones may take longer. My personal interviews for my own checks and clearances have been 8-10 hours, and the complete background check between eight months and eighteen months. Airlines don't do this, so it's really not something you'll likely have to concern yourself with.

To answer your question, what is produced from a check of your records really depends on the depth of the research. For you, a simple check of your criminal history, and wants will suffice. You can obtain a copy of your driver history, and should check your credit report. Get a copy of your school transcrips.

As all this is preparing you for an interview, a good practice is to make a small file with all your data in one place; education, past employment, etc. This is especially important as your employment history becomes more complicated. (Mine involves seasonal and temp jobs, concurrent employment, contract work, and a really broad range of activities, which I can't keep straight off the top of my head: everything is neatly laid out on my computer, however, which makes it easy to fill out an application, answer questions, etc). If you have a file that includes all the details for a former job (names, address, phone, fax, job description, wages, titles, awards, promotions, etc), you can quickly pick out what the future employer might want. I've had a number of employers just ask for a copy of what I've got to make things quicker, and I always take copies to interviews.

As others noted, if you have skeletons in your closet, don't hide them. Some employers take a very dim view of that, and operations like Fedex will fire you if such things crop up at a later date; they don't tolerate what they consider dishonesty or deceit. Far better to address it up front. Look for key words when asked about your past: if the employer asks if in the last seven years you've had any of the following; then answer within the context of the last seven years. If the employer asks if you've ever been arrested for, convicted, or charged with, however, the key word is "ever." The employer isn't limiting the question to the last seven years or ten years. Read the question carefully before answering.

There are some matters which seem minor now; a very old DUI, for example, but which may have impacts on entry into other countries (Canada, for example), which in the context of your new job could mean the company can't use you. For this reason, the company may be interested in your past history. Other operators may be interested only insofar as your disclosure demonstrates honesty. The questions about one's past are as much about character as they are checked boxes; the interest may not be so much whether you did it, but were you honest and open about disclosing it.