dera

Doors will eventually be open. Delta just hired a guy with 7 busts.
As long as you never fail anything under 135/121.

headcase

the pilot shortage isagonna save us all.

flywithchris

are you making this up? I just got denied by a "chief pilot" at piedmont because of my 5 failures
envoy wont even talk to me.

waiting on others currently. I just dont think a private pilot checkride should count towards your busts tbh but what do i know

dera

I'm not. You need a few 121 training events before any AAG regional can hire you. AAG disqualifies after 3, it needs to be a special consideration case to hire otherwise. Look at 135's, you will need as many training events as you can at a structured carrier before the big boys will talk to you. The pilot I am talking of had 2 type ratings, 3 135 training events and 2 different regionals with recurrents everywhere, with no failures. At that point the primary failures wont count any more.

And if you ever even suggest "private checkride shouldn't count" to anyone, that will disqualify you immediately. Yes it absolutely should count. Own it up. You have more failures for that ride than 99.999999% of pilot population, but it is 100.00% your fault.

flywithchris

aag after 3, but what about the regionals under united or delta?
also how many years did it take him at 135/regionals before being hired by delta?
thanks

Excargodog

950 hours with 50 hours of multi is NOT a whole lot of time. I would assume you qualify for a RATP at 1000 hours, but remember, the traditional minimum for an ATP was (and for many still is) 1500 hours. So get a job you are overqualified for - even as a SIC - and use it to build ME time and hours and upgrade as soon as eligible:

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/cargo/ameriflight

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/cargo/empire_airlines


Overcoming the bad start is doable at this point but you have dug yourself a bit of a hole. Expecting to get hired when you are only minimally qualified with that history - no matter who was or was not at fault - is a steep climb. So yeah, it may just cost you a year or two of flying boxes rather than pax. Your call…

JohnBurke

What you think is irrelevant, and I don't say that as a put-down, but a matter of fact. You may not think it should be raining, but that doesn't change the environment. Whether you think checkride busts during your primary training should count against you or not does not change the environment, either. It's not up to you to decide.

With the pilot record database, your training and employment history becomes a matter of forever, compiled all in one central location. Employers look at you not only for the lift you provide to their organization, but also the drag, and should a mishap occur to which you are party, now or ten years from now, with absolute certainty the details of every single training failure will be hashed and rehashed in reports, periodicals, podcasts, youtube videos, investigative processes, and of course, in court. In a world where the training and employment history of any mishap participant is closely scrutinized, whether it's the NTSB or the families of the victims on your flight, whether or not you actually were at fault or simply on the crew, those failures will factor prominently. The employer that takes a gamble also takes on the baggage, because it will not only be used against you, but against your employer, whether you're alive, or dead.

Hiring minimums are competitive, not merely posted. An operator may cite 1,500 hours as their minimum, but when every applicant shows up with 5,000 hours or more, that's what you have to meet or beat to get hired: it's the minimum you'll need to be competitive (competitive minimums). If every other applicant has a clean record with no training failures, but you do, then that is also a competitive factor, and may exclude you from an acceptance letter, or from getting the interview in the first place. If every other applicant that comes to that operator has 7 training failures and you only have five, then you may be a rock star. Until then, its an uphill slog.

As noted above, 900 hours really isn't anything in terms of experience or time. In today's artificial world, we have line captains who joined airlines with 250 hours and moved up, who think low time is normal. Some cry outrage that 1,500 is required, but the reality is that for many of us, it was 3,000 or 5,000 to get somewhere, even to a commuter. Personally, I spent fifteen years of HARD labor working multiple jobs at the same time before I got into turbine equipment, so have little sympathy for those who whine about not getting that regional job at less than 1,500 hours, with nothing but a year or two of their life invested. This is aviation. If you want to play, earn it. You're just scratching the surface.

I'm not telling you this because you don't know it: hopefully you do. I'm not telling you this to kick you in the proverbial groin. I'm telling you that it is possible to overcome where you've been (multiple failures), but you need to wholly own them, and you may need to put in more work, for a longer period than the next guy, to do that. You don't need to get a year under your belt of instructing. You're going to need years; multiple years, and you're going to need to show that other employers hired you, that you performed impeccably within their structure, and that you were promotable, and that the employers kept you. Don't job hop. Build work history. Get several employers, each with solid time and experience and checkrides and promotions. This isn't an overnight investment; it will be measured in years. A few years isn't much of an investment.

To own that training history, you'll have to abandon the notion that those training failures shouldn't count. That's a dismissive attitude, and shows lack of responsibility. Take them damn seriously. Employers will. What you need to show is that you've internalized them, searched them, learned from them, and you can freely talk about them as failures that are your responsibility, and show what you learned from them, and how you changed. If you can't do that, then there is no hope. If you can do that, then doors open for you, after you grease the tracks and hinges, and you'll do that with work and time and distance. The tracks are track history, and the hinges are the pivot from where you've been to what you've learned and what you become. Patience is very much THE virtue.

Whether you think training failures should count will be given credence by nobody: nobody cares that you think so. Many will care when you show that you've learned otherwise; that they do work against you, and that they are your responsibility, and that you have learned and grown from them. Don't ever be dismissive of your training history. As time goes on, employers won't care much about your logbook, but every employer, without exception, will care about your records and your history.

It's ridiculous to worry about how many years it might take you to get to Delta (you may never get there). The landscape changes; the economy, the industry, demands, hiring, etc, all change. What took a pilot three years starting three years ago is no predictor of the next three years. Different times, different politics, different economy, different times. I took fifteen years to get into a turbine airplane. Doens't mean you will. Different times, different people different lives. Maybe even different worlds. Different industry. Where will we be in three years? God only knows. Worry about now. It's all you've got.

Ever hopeful, I cling to my bucket list, to become King of Norway. Ever the realist, science forces my admission that it may not happen. Ever the optimist, I won't consider my life a failure if I'm not crowned king. Ever the pragmatist, I'm focused on now, and what I am not, is King of Norway. There are a lot of things I'd like to be doing, or be, but as a citizen of this world, this day, I'm not those things, so I focus on what I am, what I'm doing, and strive to do the best I can at that thing, or things. You do the same. Don't get wrapped around the axle over when you'll snag that Legacy job. Don't focus on the job you don't have. Focus on what you do have, what you can get, and do that. One step at a time. Own that history, wear those lessons proudly, and show what you learned from them. Your past, and the choices you've made, established who you are, and you have your past to thank for it. Own it . Do you. Be you. If that's a 900 hour gold seal flight instructor, then outstanding, be you. If that's a 135 pilot in Alaska, then fantastic, be that. If it's flying boxes or scenic tours or tossing jumpers or air ambulance or towing banners or flying fires or whatever, then make those opportunities your legacy. That's your art. That's your masterpiece. Embrace it. We don't merely log hours. We accrue experience as a lifetime record. You won't get to say when you've accrued enough, but an employer will let you know.

If that Envoy Chief Pilot told you that you're not in the running with your record, then make sure you ask him what you'd have to do to be in the running, and take that counsel to heart. Always ask, always write it down, and spend some time every day thinking about it.

You can have a career. You can have prospects, and you can do things that perhaps you can't yet quite imagine, and there's the very real possibility that you will. If you gain some pounds, you may have to work harder than the next guy to take them off, or diet more. That's fine. We're not all the same. If you have a training history that's more blemished than the next guy, it may be that you need to work longer or harder than that guy, but what he has to do is irrelevant, every bit as irrelevant as whether or not a primary training failure should count against you. Should is the wrong question. Why is the wrong question. It does count against you. Recognize that, and commit to the steps to over coming that challenge. The ball is entirely in your court. As pilots, we embrace the concept of the buck-stops-here: we're the pilot in command, and there no no authority on the planet that exceeds ours in the airplane when it comes to the final say. With that authority comes the simple fact that we also hold final responsibility for everything we do in our career, whether it's a private pilot checkride or a landing on an icy, windswept runway. The core of our pilot DNA is personal responsibility: we own the whole enchilada. The right question is simple: I am here, and what must I do to get there? Do that.

In our world, it's not really about the destination. Our purpose is the journey. Don't be so wrapt with the destination that you forget the most important part. The passenger is going somewhere; they are on the airplane only because it gets them there. For us, however, the airplane is the destination; the journey is our purpose. Don't lose sight of that, when you feel impatient. 900 hours? Barely enough time to figure out how to open the door. You've a long way to go yet. Enjoy the journey. Put your heart into it. I can tell you after a lot of years doing this job in a lot of different forms and places and aircraft, the destination isn't all that special, but the ride, the view enroute, the experience, is spectacular. That's your landscape. Forget the seniority number, and focus on the ride. Many moons ago, I opined to a flight examiner that the J-3 cub I was flying has a built-in headwind, took forever to get there. But, he queried, do you like the airplane, do you enjoy the ride? Yes, immensely. Then, he said, what does it matter how long it takes to get there, or if you ever get there, if you're happy where you are. The J-3 cub, you see, WAS the destination. I just needed to understand that.

You, too. Fly safe.

dera

You need to understand this: You have a VERY steep uphill slope to climb. You won't get there quick, and I would say going to a regional now is a HUGE mistake, even if Mesa or some other dump hires you now.

Only the worst crap operators would hire you right now. At those dumps, you will never gain the track record you need to overcome your training record. You get to a regional and you get stuck there? Being a regional lifer is a kiss of death, senior regional CA's have the worst training outcomes at airlines. Do not become one.

You need to look at 135. Caravan/PC12 gigs. Get on a 135 who will hire you as an FO. Complete 135 FO training. Upgrade at 1200 hours when you can, complete 135 CA training. Fly as CA until your next recurrent and complete 135 IPC/recurrent training. Ideally at a company that uses level D sims for it.
Then move to a regional. Complete 121 FO training and your ATP. Fly for a year or two as FO with a couple of recurrent training cycles, then upgrade to CA there. That is 7 135/121 training events you can show that puts distance between today and your failures during primary training. That should be enough. So that is what, 2-4 years.

Your failures will set you back a few years, you have to understand that. Don't think getting on with a 121 carrier right now is a good idea, it isn't. You won't get enough training events to show you can be a pilot, before you turn into sour senior regional milk.

I sent you a PM with a few more details.

tupues

I hear about these failures makes me wonder what people actually fail on. Do they bust a minima? is it the oral or poor CRM?
I wonder because in Europe and also the Middle East it’s very rare for people to fail a checkride. I can count the ones that I know ever having failed one at a 121 carrier on one hand. That makes me think that things are easier to screw up on the other side of the pond - or are the standards higher? Just wondering what I’m about to be in for since I’m yet to make the hop across after given years in the Middle East and I’m Europe.


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Sirius

If you can show that they were an isolated event(s) it won’t be a problem with the passing of time and several successful events. Consulting companies can also show you were you stand and the industry knows that some check rides have a high failure rate and/or some companies have bad check airmen.