Getting Hired and Background Checks
11-09-2010 | 09:13 PM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 233
Likes: 0
1) Look carefully at the question on the application; is it "have you ever been arrested or convicted" or is it "have you ever been convicted." Obviously you'll want to answer the question truthfully with no hedging or fudging. Arrested means arrested, regardless of dispostion of the case. In most instances the arrest record is there somewhere, and in some cases even if the conviction was subsequently expunged through a remediation of some sort.
2) Be advised that the TSA regulations which govern access to secured areas have VERY specific lists of what is and what isn't acceptable in background checks. There are guidelines for the length of time that must elapse from conviction before a candidate can be considered eligible for access / badging, which depend on the severityof the offense, but typically run 3 to 5 years, (in some cases 10 years for serious offenses) and which may or may not be stricter than an employers own policies.
3) I've said it in other places on this forum, but having spent many years in management and in the hiring process for a large 121 carrier, a history of youthful indescretions does not mix well with a airline pilot career. This does not mean that there aren't people with DUIs flying for the airlines....there are many. Some of these individuals have taken themselves off line and been through intensive treatment programs and stringent monitoring by medical personnel. Careers have been saved, discretely. And a single incident 5 or 10 years ago may be overlooked if EVERYTHING else looks good. (Good credit score, no traffic tickets, no other arrests, good recommedation from previous employer, no check ride failures, etc.)
But as a new hire applicant you are being evaluated not only on your flying credentials, but on what kind of a person your background suggests you are, and what sort of employee this suggests you will be. Imagine that an airline loses an airplane to a tragic accident, and then the news media gets ahold of "the pilot had a history of 2 DUIs and a disorderly conduct" thing. Even though his BAC might have been zero, a lot of damage can be done to the image of the airline and its ability to sell tickets.
Unfotunately today, we see these sorts of records occasionally tend to include more than just the DUI....there is a history over a period of time that may include underage drinking, or Disorderly Conduct Citations, poor credit ratings, accidents in driving records, etc. These things suggest not just immaturity, but recklessness and a flagrant disregard for the law. In other words, we look at the whole picture, and sometimes we have to say no thank you.
Some of you may not like this...but this is reality. And it's better that you know it up front before spending tens of thousands on flight training for a career that is not likely to be what you hope it will be.
For young readers on this forum...keep your goal in mind, and avoid situations injurious to your career aspirations. I know that's not easy in a culture that seems to have lost respect for so many things, where some seem to think DUIs and other offenses are a right of passage. But there is no license for sowing your wild oats for would be professionals. As an airline pilot with potentially hundreds of lives behind you, you will be held to a higher standard by society in order to "exercise the privileges" of your certificate.
Before anyone jumps on me here, yes, there are those who are the exception flying out there...who got hired, who slipped past something in a screening. That is less likely to happen now, and in the future, as record sharing is more formalized with nearly instantaneous electronic data bases. Some people got lucky when a local law enforcement agency used paper records, and then cut over to electronic recordkeeping as of a certain date. Again, that doesn't tend to be the case very often anymore.
Lastly, nothing in this post is intended to insult or judge anyone. There are many fine people who've made mistakes. I've endeavored here to produce a post that can help those evaluating a career in professional airline flying with the facts. I extend my best wishes to all those looking to build a sucessfull career!
2) Be advised that the TSA regulations which govern access to secured areas have VERY specific lists of what is and what isn't acceptable in background checks. There are guidelines for the length of time that must elapse from conviction before a candidate can be considered eligible for access / badging, which depend on the severityof the offense, but typically run 3 to 5 years, (in some cases 10 years for serious offenses) and which may or may not be stricter than an employers own policies.
3) I've said it in other places on this forum, but having spent many years in management and in the hiring process for a large 121 carrier, a history of youthful indescretions does not mix well with a airline pilot career. This does not mean that there aren't people with DUIs flying for the airlines....there are many. Some of these individuals have taken themselves off line and been through intensive treatment programs and stringent monitoring by medical personnel. Careers have been saved, discretely. And a single incident 5 or 10 years ago may be overlooked if EVERYTHING else looks good. (Good credit score, no traffic tickets, no other arrests, good recommedation from previous employer, no check ride failures, etc.)
But as a new hire applicant you are being evaluated not only on your flying credentials, but on what kind of a person your background suggests you are, and what sort of employee this suggests you will be. Imagine that an airline loses an airplane to a tragic accident, and then the news media gets ahold of "the pilot had a history of 2 DUIs and a disorderly conduct" thing. Even though his BAC might have been zero, a lot of damage can be done to the image of the airline and its ability to sell tickets.
Unfotunately today, we see these sorts of records occasionally tend to include more than just the DUI....there is a history over a period of time that may include underage drinking, or Disorderly Conduct Citations, poor credit ratings, accidents in driving records, etc. These things suggest not just immaturity, but recklessness and a flagrant disregard for the law. In other words, we look at the whole picture, and sometimes we have to say no thank you.
Some of you may not like this...but this is reality. And it's better that you know it up front before spending tens of thousands on flight training for a career that is not likely to be what you hope it will be.
For young readers on this forum...keep your goal in mind, and avoid situations injurious to your career aspirations. I know that's not easy in a culture that seems to have lost respect for so many things, where some seem to think DUIs and other offenses are a right of passage. But there is no license for sowing your wild oats for would be professionals. As an airline pilot with potentially hundreds of lives behind you, you will be held to a higher standard by society in order to "exercise the privileges" of your certificate.
Before anyone jumps on me here, yes, there are those who are the exception flying out there...who got hired, who slipped past something in a screening. That is less likely to happen now, and in the future, as record sharing is more formalized with nearly instantaneous electronic data bases. Some people got lucky when a local law enforcement agency used paper records, and then cut over to electronic recordkeeping as of a certain date. Again, that doesn't tend to be the case very often anymore.
Lastly, nothing in this post is intended to insult or judge anyone. There are many fine people who've made mistakes. I've endeavored here to produce a post that can help those evaluating a career in professional airline flying with the facts. I extend my best wishes to all those looking to build a sucessfull career!
Last edited by captfurlough; 11-09-2010 at 09:31 PM.
11-11-2010 | 10:13 AM
#12
Thread Starter
New Hire
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Bad news and good news...
The Bad:
- You were old enough when you got the DUI that you should have known better.
- Any DUI pretty much counts the same for airlines, regardless of what it was reduced to.
- You will be banned from entrance to Canada (recent change to their laws), most airlines now require that you be eligible for entry into Canada.
- DUI plus recent tickets indicates a trend of flaunting the rules. I would need to know exactly when the tickets were to get a feel for how much of a problem it might be.
- The BUI/Public may or may not be a problem. Airlines may ask about arrests, and they may find them on background checks.
The Good:
- You weren't that old when it happened. After age 25 you start to wonder if they will ever learn. After age 30 you know that they won't.
- It was seven years ago.
- Since it has been > 5 years you can get "rehabilitated" by the canadian governement (ie pay them a bunch of money). This will take time, there's a lot of paperwork before you hand over the cash, so you should start this process immediately if you want to be a an airline or corporate pilot.
- If the BUI/Public arrest was truly a innocent error, then it should not be a problem, although it sucks that you might have to explain that on top of everything else.
- Since you were young, time is on your side...the longer you are clean, the better off you will be. That means choir-boy clean: not even a speeding ticket or illegal lane change. I can afford a moving violation, but you cannot.
- Ten years is about how long it takes for employees to maybe consider forgiving a DUI. It won't keep you from getting a CFI job so depending on how much rating training you need to do plus a few years as a CFI you should be past that point by the time you apply.
- Be aware that a few airlines may blacklist you for life over this. You will be going into the career with a smaller pool of potential employers than the average guy.
- It probably won't hurt to get it expunged, but that will NOT allow you to lie about on a federal background check conducted by an airline. The feds keep their own records which probably do not get expunged. See a lawyer in the state where it happened for that. Also note that non-aviation lawyers may tell you that employers cannot find out and legally cannot hold it against you after expungement...this is not necessarily true for airlines, which have access to federal records and federally required duty to perform a background check (federal law trumps state/local law).
- Be aware that if you lie to an airline and they hire you, they will probably not run a background check until AFTER you have been hired and started training. When they find out you will be fired immediately, and will have to report that to any future airline employer. You will pretty much be done with airlines forever.
- At any interview is it VITAL that you accept full responsibility, tell them what you learned and how you have changed for the better... and then shut up. If you try to make excuses or shift blame, they will show you the door.
The Bad:
- You were old enough when you got the DUI that you should have known better.
- Any DUI pretty much counts the same for airlines, regardless of what it was reduced to.
- You will be banned from entrance to Canada (recent change to their laws), most airlines now require that you be eligible for entry into Canada.
- DUI plus recent tickets indicates a trend of flaunting the rules. I would need to know exactly when the tickets were to get a feel for how much of a problem it might be.
- The BUI/Public may or may not be a problem. Airlines may ask about arrests, and they may find them on background checks.
The Good:
- You weren't that old when it happened. After age 25 you start to wonder if they will ever learn. After age 30 you know that they won't.
- It was seven years ago.
- Since it has been > 5 years you can get "rehabilitated" by the canadian governement (ie pay them a bunch of money). This will take time, there's a lot of paperwork before you hand over the cash, so you should start this process immediately if you want to be a an airline or corporate pilot.
- If the BUI/Public arrest was truly a innocent error, then it should not be a problem, although it sucks that you might have to explain that on top of everything else.
- Since you were young, time is on your side...the longer you are clean, the better off you will be. That means choir-boy clean: not even a speeding ticket or illegal lane change. I can afford a moving violation, but you cannot.
- Ten years is about how long it takes for employees to maybe consider forgiving a DUI. It won't keep you from getting a CFI job so depending on how much rating training you need to do plus a few years as a CFI you should be past that point by the time you apply.
- Be aware that a few airlines may blacklist you for life over this. You will be going into the career with a smaller pool of potential employers than the average guy.
- It probably won't hurt to get it expunged, but that will NOT allow you to lie about on a federal background check conducted by an airline. The feds keep their own records which probably do not get expunged. See a lawyer in the state where it happened for that. Also note that non-aviation lawyers may tell you that employers cannot find out and legally cannot hold it against you after expungement...this is not necessarily true for airlines, which have access to federal records and federally required duty to perform a background check (federal law trumps state/local law).
- Be aware that if you lie to an airline and they hire you, they will probably not run a background check until AFTER you have been hired and started training. When they find out you will be fired immediately, and will have to report that to any future airline employer. You will pretty much be done with airlines forever.
- At any interview is it VITAL that you accept full responsibility, tell them what you learned and how you have changed for the better... and then shut up. If you try to make excuses or shift blame, they will show you the door.
WOW!! Thank you for taking the time to write such an informed response to my question. I sincerely appreciate it. I know that I haven't had the squeaky clean track record that they would like to see, but that doesn't make me a bad person or pilot. On the other hand, I understand their concern from a public liability standpoint.
As far as my tickets go, I can give you a rundown of what I remmeber. Do airlines check back 10 years or do they only see the ones on your DMV record? And yes, I should have known better (DUI). It was my mistake and I've learned from it greatly since then.
I had a Reckless Driving in 2/1999, a Tint ticket in 11/1998, a speeding ticket in 2001 (traffic school), another one in 10/2003 (traffic school), DUI 3/2004, Driving w/o license 10/04, a toll lane violation (transponder didn't work) and nothing to speak of since then. I had a ticket dismissed in 2006. I discovered flying in 10/2005 and have done my best to grow up since then.
Maybe I should pull my own NCIC and see what's on there? It's $18 + Fingerprints I believe. Who do airlines use for traffic history? NDR? I'm just trying to do my due dilgence before I jump in here.
11-11-2010 | 02:55 PM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,285
Likes: 0
From: Student Pilot
11-11-2010 | 07:39 PM
#15
Line Holder
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
- It probably won't hurt to get it expunged, but that will NOT allow you to lie about on a federal background check conducted by an airline. The feds keep their own records which probably do not get expunged. See a lawyer in the state where it happened for that. Also note that non-aviation lawyers may tell you that employers cannot find out and legally cannot hold it against you after expungement...this is not necessarily true for airlines, which have access to federal records and federally required duty to perform a background check (federal law trumps state/local law).
You have seen my posts in the "Ask The Recuter section." I have been doing a ton of research on this topic and from the laws that I have found in nearly every state and the attorney that I spoke with, you do not have to say you have been convicted of anything. And you shouldn't. You have been "rehabilitated" which is why you are allowed to have certain things expunged. The charge will show at the state level that it was dismissed. As in it never made it to trial. The state will also send a letter (required by federal law) that the charge has been dismissed. Most people wait a few months then check the federal background to see if it's gone, at which time if it's not (NCIC), you can write a letter and send proof that it was dismissed/expunged and contest it. The only employers that you are required to answer yes to this question to are basically government jobs. You can also not be fired for answering no to the question, and the employer is not allowed to ask about expunged/dismissed cases. It's a very slippery slope for the employer.
The problem with expunging DUI's is most states have made it very very difficult for them to be expunged now. It requires a lawyers assistance, seeing a judge, etc. There are a few things that have become very difficult.
Here is the law:
7287.4 (d)(1)
Criminal Records. Except as otherwise provided by law (e.g., 12 U.S.C. 1829; Labor Code
Section 432.7), it is unlawful for an employer or other covered entity to inquire or seek
information regarding any applicant concerning:
(A) Any arrest or detention which did not result in conviction;
(B) Any conviction for which the record has been judicially ordered sealed, expunged, or
statutorily eradicated (e.g., juvenile offense records sealed pursuant to Welfare and Institutions
Code Section 389 and Penal Code Sections 851.7 or 1203.45); any misdemeanor conviction for
which probation has been successfully completed or otherwise discharged and the case has been
judicially dismissed pursuant to Penal Code Section 1203.4; or
(C) Any arrest for which a pretrial diversion program has been successfully completed pursuant
to Penal Code Sections 1000.5 and 1001.5.Section 432.7), it is unlawful for an employer or other covered entity to inquire or seek
information regarding any applicant concerning:
(A) Any arrest or detention which did not result in conviction;
(B) Any conviction for which the record has been judicially ordered sealed, expunged, or
statutorily eradicated (e.g., juvenile offense records sealed pursuant to Welfare and Institutions
Code Section 389 and Penal Code Sections 851.7 or 1203.45); any misdemeanor conviction for
which probation has been successfully completed or otherwise discharged and the case has been
judicially dismissed pursuant to Penal Code Section 1203.4; or
(C) Any arrest for which a pretrial diversion program has been successfully completed pursuant
So legally, it shows on your record as dismissed, and they can't ask you about it. If they do, and an airline should have the HR power to know not to, you have them by the short hairs if they fire you for it. They may find something else, but if they do do you really want to work for them anyways? Once you tell them it has been dismissed, they are done asking questions, legally they have to be.
11-11-2010 | 10:09 PM
#16
Thread Starter
New Hire
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Here is the law:
So legally, it shows on your record as dismissed, and they can't ask you about it. If they do, and an airline should have the HR power to know not to, you have them by the short hairs if they fire you for it. They may find something else, but if they do do you really want to work for them anyways? Once you tell them it has been dismissed, they are done asking questions, legally they have to be.
So legally, it shows on your record as dismissed, and they can't ask you about it. If they do, and an airline should have the HR power to know not to, you have them by the short hairs if they fire you for it. They may find something else, but if they do do you really want to work for them anyways? Once you tell them it has been dismissed, they are done asking questions, legally they have to be.
11-14-2010 | 09:09 AM
#17
Line Holder
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Well that sounds like it could be good news. My question is this.. If you have reported it on your medical records to the FAA already, won't they see that you were in fact found guilty, even if it was expunged? Can they hold that against you? What if it still shows up on your DMW records? I don't think those get expunged, do they? I'm going to order my own records and make a file and do my own diligence before I proceed too far forward. I want to be 100% legal and ethical about it.
I'm not sure if they have access to your application for your medical. It will always show on your DMV records. But that will also be changed to dismissed. What I would worry about is federal laws. I have been trying to find a federal law that exempts you from having top report it.
11-14-2010 | 06:13 PM
#18
Thread Starter
New Hire
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
I'm not sure if they have access to your application for your medical. It will always show on your DMV records. But that will also be changed to dismissed. What I would worry about is federal laws. I have been trying to find a federal law that exempts you from having top report it.
1) Reckless Driving 3/2004 (this was my DUI that was reduced to a "wet reckless" in the courts. this will go off my record (I believe) on 3/2011. Don't most airlines ask "In the past 10 years...?"
2) Toll Road Violation 9/2008 - non issue...
i dont think they can see EVERY ticket you have ever gotten, can they?. even the NDR only goes back 36 months to see if anything is on your record. i'm sure they have some way of getting around this though. i did a live scan fingerprint for my state records and i'm sending in my prints to FBI tomorrow to get federal NCIC records. just curious as to what is on there. also, getting my FAA file as well just to have a complete package of information.
I have no auto accidents at all, no failed checkrides and no airplane incidents to speak of.
11-14-2010 | 08:16 PM
#19
Line Holder
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Thanks for your help! I don't think they do. They should be protected under the federal laws regarding your medical records. I pulled my own DMV records online and there are two violations on there;
1) Reckless Driving 3/2004 (this was my DUI that was reduced to a "wet reckless" in the courts. this will go off my record (I believe) on 3/2011. Don't most airlines ask "In the past 10 years...?"
2) Toll Road Violation 9/2008 - non issue...
i dont think they can see EVERY ticket you have ever gotten, can they?. even the NDR only goes back 36 months to see if anything is on your record. i'm sure they have some way of getting around this though. i did a live scan fingerprint for my state records and i'm sending in my prints to FBI tomorrow to get federal NCIC records. just curious as to what is on there. also, getting my FAA file as well just to have a complete package of information.
I have no auto accidents at all, no failed checkrides and no airplane incidents to speak of.
1) Reckless Driving 3/2004 (this was my DUI that was reduced to a "wet reckless" in the courts. this will go off my record (I believe) on 3/2011. Don't most airlines ask "In the past 10 years...?"
2) Toll Road Violation 9/2008 - non issue...
i dont think they can see EVERY ticket you have ever gotten, can they?. even the NDR only goes back 36 months to see if anything is on your record. i'm sure they have some way of getting around this though. i did a live scan fingerprint for my state records and i'm sending in my prints to FBI tomorrow to get federal NCIC records. just curious as to what is on there. also, getting my FAA file as well just to have a complete package of information.
I have no auto accidents at all, no failed checkrides and no airplane incidents to speak of.
The record is usually droped from DMV records after three years. But depending on what state your from, the record will never go away, no matter how small. I can still see things in an online search for the county I live in from when I was 18 for minor traffic violations (window tint ticket).
11-18-2010 | 11:37 AM
#20
Thread Starter
New Hire
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
I just got my official state background check in the mail and, in summary, here's what it said.
11/03 DUI : DISMISSED : PLEAD TO LESSER CHARGE
11/03 RECKLESS DRIVING : GUILTY
2/10 Biking Under Infl : Dismissed/ Motion of People
2/10 Obstructing Officer : Dissmissed / Motion of People
.. End of Report
So does this mean I just have to disclose the reckless driving because the rest were dismissed?
On a side note.. I think the whole asking if you've ever been "arrested" for something is a bit bogus. what happened to innocent until proven guilty? a cop can arrest you for anything and potentially ruin a career. Cops loved doing this (especially where I live). It's like a game to them. I understand asking if ever "convicted" but anything more seems like a violation of your rights.
11/03 DUI : DISMISSED : PLEAD TO LESSER CHARGE
11/03 RECKLESS DRIVING : GUILTY
2/10 Biking Under Infl : Dismissed/ Motion of People
2/10 Obstructing Officer : Dissmissed / Motion of People
.. End of Report
So does this mean I just have to disclose the reckless driving because the rest were dismissed?
On a side note.. I think the whole asking if you've ever been "arrested" for something is a bit bogus. what happened to innocent until proven guilty? a cop can arrest you for anything and potentially ruin a career. Cops loved doing this (especially where I live). It's like a game to them. I understand asking if ever "convicted" but anything more seems like a violation of your rights.
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