Check the wording on the application carefully...some simply ask whether you were convicted...some say arrested or convicted. Note also that the FAA medical application states "arrests and or convictions invovling intoxicated use of a motor vehicle."

The problem is that charges are frequently plea bargined to a lesser charge, and even a conviction on a lesser charge will still show a case history file that will usually include the original charge. Hence, while there is no requirement to disclose something that is not asked for, be aware that the information is probably available and will likely turn up in a thorough pre-employment background check.

Rather than worry about what will show on these checks, (something you can't control) it may be more profitable to think through how you might respond to a question about them, should it come up. Remember, many companies actually hire you first, and then work through the background check as you go through the early portions of your training, as it takes some time for the background checks to be accomplished. That's why the application usually has a statement that says anything falsified or concealed will be grounds for dismissal.

I've seen a number of surprising things....spousal abuse, falsified college degrees, DUIs and disorderly conduct citations. As I've said before in this thread, a single screw up usually can be dismissed as long as the applicant's record has been clean for the last 3 plus years. A history of more than one is usually more of a concern and is generally an impediment to an offer of employment with a larger airline. On more than one occasion we had to pull someone out of class and send them packing...always because they did not disclose things as required by the application, and usually it was a history of problems. Then, the poor guy would have to live with a termination on his record too...

The best bit to take home out of this is just to be honest. You can usually work it out in the end.

 

Airlines have had a tendency to do things they way THEY want to, and fight the lawsuit if necessary. I guarantee you that AMR for example would fire somebody in a heartbeat if they found out he had this sort of background. They would prefer to pay lawyers rather than than risk the PR damage if there is an incident and the pilot's background becomes public.

It's not all about whether they think you are a good guy...they consider how it will look in the 6 o'clock news and how a jury will feel about it after a crash, when literally billions are on the line.

Generally I advise honesty (only if asked, don't disclose anything they don't ask for). But in the case of a fairly detailed history like this one, he might be better off not mentioning the expunged matters and hoping they don't find out. Tough call.

But DO NOT lie on any federal forms...there is federal prison time associated with that.

 

AMR is funny this way. There was a guy in ground school at American outside having a smoke during break. The instructor witnessed this activity, went to hr and dug out his app, the part where you write down "never smoked", just above "nobody ever died" in your family. The new hire was immediately dismissed for lying on his application.

 

Thank you for your feedback. It is much appreciated. So, with my record as it is and lets say I can get the Reckless Driving Expunged (the DUI, etc are already dismissed.. no need to expunge them), would I be hirable after I meet the requirements? And would a major airline in the future look at my background and say "no way jose" or would they eventually give me a shot (ok AMR won't ever haha)? I don't think they can legally ask you about dismissed charges and/or hold them against you.

I think I'm just going to go for it and shoot the moon. I don't have the worst record in the world and by the time I get there, it will have been 10 years from the dui date anyways. I'll hopefully get hired.. it might not be Jet Blue.. but it will be Jet "Somebody"..

 

FlyinBC,

The older issues should not be a problem at this point, as long as the last 3 to 5 years are clear. If the bycicle incident is recorded in some data base, and that data base happend to be accessed by the firm doing the background check, that could be interpreted negatively even with the dismissal. That might not be fair, but it would be looked at in context of the previous incidents, (if they still show in the data bases) which might then be construed as a potential problem with alcohol. It's very difficult to say exactly what will turn up. If you were not hired, you'd never know exactly why....as applicants are routinely turned down for a wide variety of reasons. In other words, you couldn't assume it was something in the background check because it could have been something else.

If you've mentioned it in your posts, I'm sorry I missed it, but where are you in terms of your training, certification, and experience? If you already have your ratings and say, 1500 hours, it's conceivable that a commuter or regional would consider you.

Your goal in the application process is to get the interview. You have nothing to lose by applying, and being scrupulously honest in disclosing whatever the application requires. You need not disclose something that the application does not ask for at this time. If you are fortunate enough to win the interview, it means that they are interested in you, and would like to meet with you in person to determine if you'd be a good fit in their operation. If, during the interview, there are any questions concerning something disclosed on the application, answer in a straight forward manner while remembering that they're trying to determine whether the background suggests a possiblity of future issues or liabilities. In addition, they must ensure that your background will not prohibit you from obtaining clearance to enter the Air Operations Area under the applicable TSA requirements. You can access these online. Without being defensive, do your best to reassure them that you've learned from your mistakes, and hopefully you're in a position to point out that you have not repeated them for an extended period of time.

Once hired, the background check will begin in earnest. Your offer of employment will specifically state that it is contingent on passing the background check, even though the starting date of employment may preceed it's completion. If you begin employment, and something does come up that has not been previously disclosed, you may not have a chance to discuss the matter to your satisfaction, as your employment status is considered probationary and "at will." This can be particularly problematic for those who have left other employment to pursue their first flying job, in that they can find themselves unemployed with little recourse.

If you are obtaining training and ratings in hopes of professional employment, be advised that crews are subject to random and mandatory drug and alcohol tests, and that there are specific procedures required of a pilot in the event of an arrest for DUI, both on an internal corporate level and with respect to FAA medical certificates.

I hope this answers your questions and has been helpful....best wishes!

 

If it has been expunged, legally, you don't have to report it, and it no longer shows on your record. The only people that can see it are goverment agencies. So my train of thought is that if it isn't on your record(in CA it shows as dismissed), why open the can that does not exist. And if you do get fired, you could make a PR nightmare for the airline as well.

"Pilot gets fired for not admitting to expunged records and sues for a lifetimes of wages, and wins." It would be a open/closed case. They broke the law, not the pilot. Their only way out would be to fire you for something that you didn't actually do, which I am sure can be done, even at that level.

But like you said, you ARE required to report it on federal forms. Federal and state employment/related paper work DO have access to what happened and you can face fines AND jail time for lieing on those forms.


What really sucks is how the system works. It's no wonder it's a revolving door. Some things should come off your record and disappear after a certian time alotment. I can still see a traffic ticket on my record from when I was 18. Seriously, I was 18, that was almost 15 years ago! Sure, it's not in the DMV database, and my insurance is no longer effected, but let it go already!

 

Interesting threads and great info. I did get a speeding ticket in 1989, however it doesn't appear on the NDR. Is it even worth bringing up? On a slightly heavier note, a buddy flies for a fractional (his only option at the time) and has an old drug charge and wants to fly for a major carrier. Being that TSA check goes back just ten years, is he good to go?

 

There are also private agencies which take periodic "snapshots" of public records for background checks. Are you sure they delete expunged records? I know as fact that some of them don't, and that's why certain employers like these agencies.

Unfortunately, the case history with airlines is that the airlines usually win. As I have said before, once you start talking about "safety of the flying public", juries seem to roll over. The airlines have won some surprising victories.

Also you will most likely never know exactly why they did not hire you. If they do a board-review process, any one reviewer can vote no, and they don't necessarily have to write down their reason.

Also, if you successfully sue a regional I'm not sure that you would ever be able to get a job at a major. Lawsuits are public record, and they don't get expunged.


I agree it sucks.

 

No matter how someone might wish / try to avoid discovery of their past, the reality is that there is often some record, retrievable in a data base, that will disclose previous arrests. Some insurance companies, for example, track things in their own databases much like consumer credit bureaus do. Other governments, like Canada for example, access alcohol violations and will stop a driver at the border if they've had a DUI within the last few years, and refuse entry.

As I've said repeatedly in this thread, a single incident such as a solatary DUI 10 years ago with no record of arrests is one thing. It suggests that the individual made a mistake, and has mangaged him/herself well since then, and it is reasonable to assume that there will not be any further risk out of the ordinary.

There are a small but significant number of individuals, particularly in the yourger generation and in a disfunctional culture, where there is a record of two, three, or even four arrests, for things like:

...disorderly conduct, underage alcohol, DUI, or reckless driving, resisting arrest, possession of marijana, retail theft, etc, often over a period of years.

Quite obviously, in those sorts of cases, this paints a picture of an individual who not only has poor judgement, but who disregards the law; hardly traits that are equated with success as airline pilots. The fact is these matters build a reputation that tends to follow someone around for a long time, and they may well close doors to certain opportunities. Sad to say, they may not realize it at the time, but chances are good they were counseled. Most individuals make it through puberty and young adulthood without ever facing arrest for something other than a minor traffic stop. An arrest is not a "normal" occurance or right of passage. It is an unfortunate circumstance by any measure.

If we agree that we all can make mistakes and learn from our mistakes, it would be reasonable to assume that as evidence of having learned from that mistake we would not see additional run ins with the law. In other words, we all deserve one chance at correcting ourselves. And we hope that's just what the background checks are going to show....

But again I say to those young people reading this or contemplating a career in professional flying...despite jailhouse lawyers, money, and talk of expungement....be aware that your actions and decisions will follow you around, and may lock you out of career choices that you are only now beginning to contemplate, or perhaps have yet to envision.

 

They infact do. If it comes up, you could just produce the records from what agency charged you with it, and that should hopefully clear your name. They are required to give you a reason for termination.



If someone had to sue a regional carrier because of a bad background, I doubt that a major would hire them either. Honestly, at that point because of PRIA paper work, your career would basically be over with the airlines anyways. You'd still have a shot at a 135 career maybe, but it would still be a hard road to hoe. I know, I dealing with it right now. Luckily, my case was recently expunged. On all my future applications, I am going to check "yes." In the explanation box I am going to put "Case was dismissed." I am not lying. If it asks if I was ever arrested, I can truthfully answer no as well, because with the circumstances of my situation, I wasn't. I luckily don't have an arrest record.


On a side note, I put in an application with Air Wisconsin. I meet all of their quals., by nearly double or triple. But unfortunately, because I had to check yes, I got an email back WITHIN HOURS that I was not eligible for hire. Some guys are being looked at for day and weeks. EOE my foot!