cuin

This has been some an issue for some in the sense that everyone has an opinion about it, usually a negative one. The reality is that I have known some pilots that have been hired with busted checkrides. I work at a flight school in Southern Cali. and have seen recently a friend/coworker get hired by A.E. and had other opportunities of employment in 135/121. This particular gentleman had 2 failed checkrides. This is just one that was recent like 1 week ago. Since my employment I have seen other Pilots get hired with busted checkrides, and some with no busted. I guess it comes down to how you will handle yourself in the interview if they mention it.

Stratapilot

The above is complete utter baloney, and does alot of people out there a tremendous disservice. So you won't get a job a Colgan. Boo Hoo! You're better off. There are other airlines that will interview you AND hire you with multiple checkride busts. I'm living proof.

Cubdriver

And Rick said a few posts ago that his post was an attempt to set a ballpark correlation between the number of checkride busts a given candidate has, and the attitude a particular hiring panel would likely have toward that candidate under the current market conditions. I thought it was a useful post and I get the feeling there is some resistance out there to the obvious idea that busts make a tangible difference in who gets hired and who does not get hired.

I think it is obvious that:
1) Hiring panels do have attitudes and opinions about bust counts.
2) Each panel has decided what their particular bust number is under current hiring market conditions: they know the number, we do not, and this is where expert opinion comes into play.

So what is your point- the number changes? Or that correlations cannot be made? Or that Rick has no idea what the correlation is? And if so, why is your opinion likely to be more accurate?

rickair7777

When did you get hired? The post was a ballpark estimate at the time it was written (which was not in the last couple months). As the market changes, hiring standards will change...it seems to be improving recently. If you got hired with 4 busts I'd like to hear the story...

USMCFLYR

I like the fact that there always seems to be the "I know a guy that....." attitude out there about a dark horse who might have managed to beat some odds (whether it be checkride failures or DUIs for example). Of course if you want to bet your future career on chances approaching the lottery, then more power to you! Myself - I know that there are always examples of the extremes on both ends - in this case someone getting hired with multiple hits on their record while others with perfect records are not hired - but I'm more interested in the MAJORITY numbers, and in this I feel that rickair7777 does a fair job of portraying hiring attitudes.

USMCFLYR

Stratapilot

Last week. Everyone's got a story so here is mine:

I was in college doing my flight training, I was young, unfocused, poor, and stupid.

I busted my Instrument because I didn't know I couldn't go direct to a intersection without a GPS. This was back when GPS units were first being introduced in to aircraft and my plane didn't even have one. So I took the bait and ended up trying to go direct to the intersection without getting on the holding radial first. Examiner 1 Me 0. Important lesson learned: Doesn't matter if the airplane is equipped or not , you still need to know it.

Commercial: I was so nervous about failing my commercial, that I well, failed the commercial. Pure checkride-itis. Important lesson learned: When it's game time. Pull your head out of your A** and do your job.

CFI: The examiner didn't like my explanation of MEL's and busted me on the oral. When I went back he didn't even ask me any questions on MEL's and had me do a lesson on 8's on pylons and then went up on the flight. First maneuver right out of the gate: Crossed control stalls. The wing didn't drop. Busted. Since I heard the the examiner was involved in some shenanigans, and one of the contributing factors to me busting was the my instructor hadn't taught the maneuver correctly, I decided to leave the school and attend another one. This time around I went to the FSDO and endured the ol' 6 hour oral and 3 hour flight. Passed with flying colors. Lessons learned: You can never know too much. Sometimes you have to know more than your instructor.

This was 11 years ago.

Since then I've become a successful and VERY busy independent CFI with a good reputation for turning out a high quality product. Additionally, I've passed 4 check rides since then with no problem.

That being said, I had to be proactive with getting an interview, and during that interview I had to PROVE that despite my past foibles the failures do not in anyway represent my, my aviation knowledge, or my abilities as a pilot.

I'm glad I busted those rides. They made me the pilot I am today. They made me realize that there are no mulligans in this game, they made me realize the weaknesses that I have, and they forced me to grow the hell up.

I got ****ed off when I read your initial post because it makes it appear that you look down on people that have have made mistakes in their past, and they they don't deserve the opportunity to prove that they can do this. For someone to say that I should look in to another line of work, after all the effort and time I put in to this rubs me the wrong way.

rickair7777

I don't look down on people who have busted rides (in most cases), I have my own history too. The general aviation system is extremely diverse and inconsistent, and there are plenty of 141 products who would have multiple pink slips if they hadn't been in 141. Even regional 121 operations can have inconsistent and unpredictable training systems...some have been to known to wash 50% of trainees.

The reason you overcame this situation was 11 years elapsed. Employers see a long stretch of clean history and they also assume that if youthful attitude or lack of initiative was part of the problem (I'm not saying it was) that you have matured over time.

Given what I know about the state of the industry (and what I suspect about the future) I would not recommend that someone with that many recent busts spend a decade as a CFI with the intent of getting to the airlines. If nobody is hiring after ten years, ten might become 15...

Of course that's ultimately up to the individual as to what makes them happy, but my primary concern with giving advice to a young person is their financial future, and in the airline business the sooner you can make a living wage the sooner you can start saving for the inevitable furloughs, medical LOAs, and retirement expenses.

Someone starting out in your shoes who really wanted to pursue aviation might be best served by getting the best-paying job his skills and education allowed, and doing GA/CFI work on the side. Since he needs a few years to let the water flow under the bridge anyway, he's not in a huge hurry to build flight time and should be able to have 2000+ and hopefully a couple hundred ME after 5-8 years. Then he can look into airlines.

I have no idea what your finances are like, but I assume worst case when giving advice: college/flight school loans, low-market value degree, and no trade skills...ten years as a CFI could be rough, unless you are an aggressive freelancer or get one of the few CFI jobs with benefits.

nisx

I think these are a few variables:

1- Economic climate.

2- The airline.

3- The person.

1: If the airline is hiring 10 people, a disapproval might be an issue. If they are hiring 100+, that might not be the case.

2: If upper management refuses to hire someone with a disapproval, cant help it.

3: The whole purpose of an interview is for the company to see see if A) you are qualified and B) if you are someone who would fit in.

I know people who have had several busts and got a job. It all depends, no one should stop trying. If flying for an airline is what you want to do, just go for it!