It sure would be nice if the airlines rewarded pilots who have a lifelong passion for aviation and built diverse backgrounds over a longer period of time, but they don't. Experienced lifelong aviators crash planes too. Possibly even more. Fof every Al Haynes there are three guys who crash planes due to complacency.

The path to the easiest career and best chances at making it to the big time is to go straight to a regional if you can. There are no points given for second place the seniority list is everything and the airlines don't care if you flight instruct or went straight to a regional (they might even like the guys who go straight to a regional better).

All of your experience prior to upgrade at the regionals means nothing at all to the majors so the name of the game is to upgrade as fast as you can.

Skyhigh

P.S. You don't have to flight instruct or fly pipeline patrol for years before flying for the military. Experience is relative.

 

Dude I applaud your enthusiasm, but you need to relax. You are throwing out alot of facts. Your only experience so far comes from a video game that is a fact. Your coming off a bit strong and defensive in your responses. You need to start toning that down before you start rubbing people the wrong way(like the people on the interview board for that airline gig you dream of). BTW im 23 got hired in the right seat of a RJ at 22 gaining seniority and making a paycheck like you said you wanted to do. I didn't need to do my flight training at ERAU to do it.

Your so focused on ERAU. The point is to fly at ERAU is EXTREMELY expensive and I just cant see how you can justify the reason to drop 200K to learn how to fly. Granted I payed about 70k for my training I still came out alot better than doing my training at Riddle. What I did do and will share with you is this (just to give you some ideas for some options): I went to a Community college in Greensboro, NC (Guilford Tech) that has an affiliation with Riddle. You complete Guilford's 2 year program. You then start taking ERAU classes and complete your BA from ERAU right there at the same campus. They bring in ERAU professors, and they have their own classrooms and office space on campus. When its time to graduate you make your way down to Daytona and walk with everyone else. You do all this while almost paying for riddle classes at a in - state community college rate. Saves a bundle of money. This way you get your big shiny ERAU degree with out the the big shiny price tag.

I did my private at small 61 FBO in Winston Salem while I went to school, and then gave in and did everything else at a big 141 puppy mill down in Florida . Anyways, that is just my experience .

 

I was not using your particular situation in my post skylover. I think both bcrosier and I were talking in GENERAL when we were talking about people cutting corners - but it would apply to you if you were in a position to go straight from ERAU to a regional. Thank goodness - I hope the new rules have put an end to that practice.

We agree on these points and I think that you will find that most experienced piots also agree.

I had some instructors in college who CFI'ed for about two years while still in college.
At the time, the school even had a P135 operation (Exec Express) flying Navajos (eventually trying to upgrade to Do-228s which probably sent them into bankruptcy). That was a great way for them to get a little more experience prior to geting on with a *real* regional and working their way up the ladder. It didn't work out that way for me....but that is water under the bridge at this point

Plenty of threads on the subject.

USMCFLYR

 

Ah, okay. I just wanted to explain that I never had any intention of "cutting corners," and I think that after flight instructing for the amount of time I was telling you about, I'll have a good deal of experience, like what you and bcroiser were talking about.

hc0fitted - I assure you that I'm not like that in real life! Sometimes it's difficult to get my point across on this forum though, and it's necessary to use capital letters!

You may not have read this because it was earlier in the thread, but I have a variety of grants lined up (primarily for academic merit), as well as a dedicated college fund from my family that will pretty much take care of any college that I choose to go to. So the price of ERAU isn't a huge factor for me (thank God!) Okay, time to stop talking about myself...

 

People like to make the mistake of thinking that if grandma pays for flight training then it is free. Please remember that education is a cherished resource that will have a major impact on how you will live 30 years from now. Just because you get grants and trust funds to pay for it does not mean that a foolish choice will not cost you big in the long run.

Get a degree in something rational and apart from aviation. You don't know what tomorrow will bring. Diversification and a solid back up plan are a crucial element in a successful career and life. Going to a big time aviation university is to put all of your eggs into one basket.

The price of an aviation degree and training is the equivalent of a very nice middle class house in many parts of the country. IN then years I can guarantee that you will wish you had the paid off house instead of a worthless aviation degree.

Skyhigh

 

You have a bright future ahead of you, skylover. Your passion and zeal, combined with your intelligence, wit, and strong sense of rationality will take you far. Your ability to debate with reason has impressed me. I admire your ability to defend your position, even in adversity.

With all that said, might I humbly suggest you look into diversifying your college experience? It is easy to say now that the degree you eventually find yourself acquiring won't truly matter; after all, you simply intend on flying for your career, right? However, you never know what life may throw at you.

Imagine, if you will, that you're 10 years into a bright future in aviation, but all of a sudden you find you cannot pass your FAA flight physical. The obvious answer would be to turn to your degree and attempt to switch gears, but if all you know is aviation, you may find yourself stuck in the back end of an alley somewhere without any way out.

Perhaps you were to seek a degree in business administration? Then you might even think about getting into the corporate side of aviation, maybe one day even running an airport or airline, making the big bucks and taking the big risks.

You never know. While I don't like the over-handedness of the others who are arguing against you, that one point continues to appeal to me as a voice of reason.

Whatever you decide, don't let all these old-timers beat the optimism out of you. It's a powerful force, and people *do* notice it. Oftentimes, people become very jealous of it, as well. There's a fine line between between being optimistic and stuck up - learn the distinction and keep your head high!

Good luck!

 

Wow! That's probably one of the nicest comments I've ever gotten. Thank you so much!

What you're mentioning is probably my biggest and most pressing concern, and I mean that very seriously. I'm a pretty healthy guy, and I probably (hope!) won't run into any health problems preventing me from flying. Unfortunately, that's not really up to me to decide. The father of one of my friends is a doctor who also happens to be certified to do FAA medicals, and he told me that if you do end up with a medical condition on the "no-fly list," and you are confident you can still fly, the FAA will give you the medical if you present a doctor's note.

Of course, the "other" career choice I've considered is marketing/brand management, but that's a 180 from piloting!

 

Oh Lord skylover.
You have GOT to start during some real research on the REALITY of this profession that you know all about before you really get yourself in trouble.

Go to FAA.gov and start reading about the medical requirements. Pick something that might pop up in the future out of nowhere (try Hypothyroidism for example) and then read the requirements to get your medical back. Hint: It isn't quite so easy as presenting CAMI a note from your doctor and presto you're flying the next day Let me be the first to GUARANTEE you that your confidence in your ability to fly means nothing to CAMI.

D2D presents the same thoughts to you as the rest of us but in a *nicer* way ; then again that poster is fairly new to the forums and hasn't been asked nor answered the same questions a hundred times over and over yet either.

D2D - did I read somewhere that you went to the Naval Academy?
Were you/or are you aviation rated? If you are/were in aviation then you undoubtedly came across NAMI and know that CAMI is the civilian equivalent. I doubt the dreaded *CAMI whammy* can be circumnavigated as easily as is being thought of above. Agreed?

USMCFLYR

 

I was simply quoting what an FAA medical examiner told me. I haven't looked at it myself extensively though.

 

I think part of the problem here is we are at times talking past each other as there are so many different aspects floating around in this thread.

I agree with everything you say here, except the one part you don't quite say. I think you have an excellent plan as far as it goes, and you will definitely gain a good deal of experience along the way. What isn't quite said, but what I get from reading this is after busting your hump CFI'ing (good for you, excellent experience) in a 141 program, you'd go straight to a regional if that was an option. This is the part I take issue with - as I said before:

[QUOTE=bcrosier;1230971]The path I'm referring to is the one where you don't do all of your flying in ANY university, 141, or 121 operation. One where you gain 1000 or more hours as the lonely guy on a nasty winter's night/facing down a squall line/running low on fuel when all the airports nearby are going below minimums, who has to make the hard decision whether to takeoff/continue/divert/whatever without anyone but yourself and your knowledge and skills to rely on. I will GUARANTEE you THAT educational path produces a pilot who is VASTLY SUPERIOR to a pilot who did any structured, instructed for a while (and I'm all for being a CFI; you will learn VOLUMES from doing it - but it's not a complete education in and of itself either), {emphasis added} then hired on as a 121 FO with less than ATP minimums. [QUOTE]

Being a CFI really is great experience, and too many people on here sell it short - but it doesn't give you as rich a background if you stick only to that without diversifying your experience some.

The original context of this discussion was framed in your statement that you supported the reduced minimums. I've been trying to explain why just taking the shortest path from any school to the regionals is not the best path for your overall growth as a professional aviator.

In short, in any highly structured and controlled environment such as 141, 121, or even a highly structured 61 school, you have multiple layers of people overseeing you to ensure that nothing bad happens. Spend some time out of that environment, where the only one watching out for you is you, and you will gain another dimension of experience that WILL benefit you as you progress in your career.

Again, great plan - just don't stop there with it! Whether it be aerial survey, pipeline patrol, flying the bush, 135, or a small 91 corporate operation - do that for at least a year or two, THEN move on to the world of 121 (if that is still where you want to go at that point)

Now, to the part where your definsiveness takes over and your logic breaks down:

Now let's be careful and define our terms here:

• We'll assume that statistic is true (I suspect it's high, but let's go with it).
• We're really talking about pilots at the majors, since we know there have been many zero-to-hero's hired at the regionals in the past ten years who have cut corners, so let's throw that out of the mix.

Given these, no - 1/4 of U.S. major airline pilots didn't cut corners. When they were coming up through the ranks, you typically had 2000 hours or more before even being considered for a regional. The did have to go out and build experience doing all of the things discussed elsewhere.



If you have all the merit based awards you say (and I assume you do), you should quite easily be able to figure this out for yourself. You may not like the answer, but it's still the answer.


Finally, moving on to school choice: I know you have your heart set on ER, but at least consider what a few of the recent posts have said, such as:




It's been said and it's true - airlines do not care what your degree is in (and I can't emphasize that enough - they really don't, just have a 4-year degree and decent grades). The converse is not the case, many businesses outside of aviation will accept a variety of degrees, but one in aviation (they don't see value in that) from a university that people outside of aviation know nothing about has very limited utility. Do an informal survey amongst acquaintances - name virtually any state school or university in a major sports conference and ask them if they've heard of it and if it's a good school. Then ask the same of an aviation only university - see what your results are. This is essentially the same thing that will happen when your resume crosses a non-aviation desk along with 157 others. It's something to think about.


I'm probably a little hard on you here because in many ways you seem to resemble me from years back (don't worry, if you try you can avoid turning into an a$$#0!@). I lived and breathed aviation, I got my private in high school, and read just about everything I could lay my hands on concerning aviation.


I was determined to go into a flight program - semi-unfortunately for me, my grades in HS didn't quite make the cut at the time. Instead I got my A&P along with pretty much all of the flight courses (there were a few I couldn't get into, but in retrospect I didn't miss too much in not taking them). Today I consider NOT getting into the flight school and essentially being forced to get my A&P the second biggest favor the university could have done me - the A&P ticket along with my outside the university experience opened up doors that would not have been available otherwise.


Why do I consider it the second biggest favor? Because in all honesty, the biggest favor would have been forcing me to get a degree in a "normal" field. As has been said, things change, stuff happens, through circumstances you may not end up where you think you will. Options are your friend, and sadly an aviation degree doesn't do a very good job of providing them.


Well, once again what was intended to be a quick reply has turned into another novel - sorry about that.