USMCFLYR

To those looking in on this thread and for direction in the industry; I'd weigh the advice given by some very carefully before forming plans based on such advice.
Some people probably gamble on the lottery every week as a primary retirement plan, and once in a blue moon someone might win that lottery and trumpet their success, but that does not make the plan a viable one for the masses!
Plan carefully.

USMCFLYR

JohnBurke

Obtuse? You're doubtless familiar with the expression that when one assumes, it makes an ass of u and me? It that too obtuse for you?

This is aviation. We don't assume. We know. We don't assume weights, balances, speeds, times, distances, fuel burns, or any other aspect of what we do. We know. Assumption is unprofessional and frankly, in our business, idiotic.

I said nothing about hiring street captains, nor about being hired as a captain. That was an assumption, and not something I stated, nor implied.

As you asked, National was hiring captains, but I know nothing about them, other than a general understanding that their policies have changed.

As for your friends, let them do some leg work and lift a finger to help themselves.

I wasn't hired as a street captain. I was hired as an FO who worked my way into the position, in seniority, without a degree, and without inside recommendations. I didn't ask, none were offered. I applied, was hired, and upgraded, just as I have elsewhere throughout my career.

Conversely, you want me to network me and use my contacts and my information to get you and your friends somewhere. Are none of you able to do that for yourselves?

A major fallacy in this business (which stems more from the military side of the house, in my opinion) is that one can go nowhere without networking, without getting a hand-up, without the gouge, without inside tips, and so on. It's just not so.

I shouldn't be more than anything. I don't owe you, or your friends a thing. What did you or your friends ever do for me? What did I ever ask of you, or your friends? The answer to both is "nothing."

Again, the notion of networking is so ingrained in you that you can't imagine anything else. Are your friends unable to seek out their own job information, and apply? Perhaps you believe in the good old boys club. Frankly, it makes me sick.

You've got a degree, no? Restricting the job market to those who have a degree is self-serving to degree holders.

I sat in a restaurant-bar last year with several other crew members, each captains, and had a meal. One individual who was recently elected to a union position was somewhat of a blow-hard who began to pontificate about the need for a national seniority list, and other such things. One of this rantings regarded restricting all future prospects to degree-holders. "It's our way of sorting out the riff-raff," he said. I asked him what he meant. He told me it would weed out the lesser, unworthy individuals, specifically those who were uneducated.

"Like me?" I asked. He paused with that deer-in-the-headlights look that people have when they've made a social faux-paux and said something entirely idiotic, before replying "Well, you'd be grandfathered in."

"Grandfathered in?" I asked.

"Yes, people like you would be able to keep their jobs until we could raise the bar over time." he said.

"And get rid of riff-raff like me, you mean?" I asked.

"Exactly." He replied.

Really, really pathetic, and weak.

An interesting twist on those calling for a degree are those who have obtained their degree traditionally, in-residence, opposing those who have obtained a degree online. While many who have experienced online schooling will be of the opinion that it takes greater discipline and may be harder for various reasons (less interface with the instructor, more demand on the student, etc), I've run into quite a few pilots who are very dismissive of online degrees...and thus a hierarchy is established, just as it is for the discipline of the degree, and the school from which it is obtained.

Many will be quick to say that not all degrees are equal, while others assert that having any degree is the thing. There are few degrees that actually enhance one's ability to operate as a professional pilot: most exist to enhance the resume. Professional aviation degrees are considered fluff, and truly are. A degree in English or History or Psychology has about as much to do with flying an airplane as planting seeds and grooming dogs might do. The tired apologetics about degrees showing commitment and integrity and effort are meaningless; they're trite and self-serving to the degree holder.

Are you selling anything? If you're pushing a degree, you certainly are, especially as a degree holder asserting that one couldn't possibly have a meaningful career without that degree.

I didn't go to college. I learned to fly in high school, and began flying commercially as soon as I graduated. By the time others finished their college degrees and began looking for entry level work, I'd already been flying for several years. Many years later when I looked into seeking a degree, I found that much of the degree would be covered with my work experience: a great deal of the degree would be credited to my FAA certification and experience, meaning that in a very real sense, gaining certification and hours was much like gaining college hours.

Frankly a college degree means nothing to me. I don't care if you have one, or if you don't. Whether you can fly, whether you can make sound judgements, whether you can act professionally, those matter. Your degree as a space-filler on your resume does not. While some (not all) employers use it as one of many discriminators in the employment process, it is hardly a necessity, and that's becoming more the case in todays day and age. The stigma that attended one who lacked a degree years ago is no longer what it was.

Again, I don't discourage anyone from seeking a degree, and never have. All should be aware, however, that the degree is not necessary. Personally, I'd rather see one achieve maintenance certification, as an A&P and the understanding that comes with it is far more germane to what we do in the cockpit than most degrees. It's what I did, and it's provided more job opportunities for me over the years than a degree would have done.

satpak77

JohnBurke, more power to you, good job on your accomplishments sans degree. You have reached a sought after position (CA on one of worlds largest airline equipment) and should be commended.

However, you will likely concede that you did not get hired in "todays environment" (will you not?) which can be loosely defined as Post-9/11 and more specifically 2005 to present. I don't think so, because I don't know off the top of my head, of any 747 operators which hired post 9/11 and whoever did get hired, got promoted to Captain within approx 10 years of being hired. Feel free to expand on this.

In today's environment, the advice to a guy just coming into the industry whether he be a PPL guy or a new RJ F.O. but seeking to enhance his resume, is get a 4-year degree. Oh, and networking is important.

Today, 2012, NetJets has ???? capable, professional pilots furloughed? Maybe every auto manufacturer closed their flight departments, sending international jet captains to the streets. The financial crisis cause many mid-sized departments to throw in the towel and those guys are on the street. American has ??? on the street. Today, 2012, who is hiring ? What ? Fedex ? You call 10 guys a month "hiring". That is 120 dudes a year. Out of how many thousands of applicants. SWA? Froze hiring. So who is hiring? Etc. Right now, you need a great resume, great experience, solid creds, and a network for someone to give you a helping hand. That is just the reality. Lets also remember that at some point, our involvement in Afghan and Iraq will wind down almost completely, and hundreds if not more, degreed, experienced, veterans (who have fought for our freedom and deserve our thanks), will be retiring or leaving the service and they too will want airline jobs. Not just fighter guys, but C-17, KC-10, C-130 guys. These are folks flying heavy transport equipment in global ops, in war zones, and they ALL have at least Bachelors degrees and ALL have networks.

Can a non-degree, non-networked dude, get hired say at FedEx, or SWA, or any similar highly desired place. Maybe, but very difficult, in an already difficult environment to start with.

I would recommend 1) Get a degree and 2) Network........versus 1) No degree 2) No network

rickair7777

Huh?!? But I'm not the one doing the restricting. All I'm doing is telling young people that the restriction exists, I'm still not seeing how that is in any way self-serving.

It might be self-serving to tell people NOT to get a degree, that way the playing field would be tilted more in my favor...

I'm still not sure exactly how good (or not so good) you have it, but you can't seriously tell people that a degree is not material to becoming a wide-body CA. That's just not the case for the younger crowd. You either started a long time ago, or got really, really lucky. Yes, there are more than a handful of no-degree pilots at major airlines but the vast majority got hired a long time ago. I'm assuming that most people aspire to work for one of the better majors, as opposed to a B-rated startup or regional lifer.

SVTCobra

The same holds true in the states. I have seen many guys leave for the "greener pastures". Didn't work out so well for most of them.

SVTCobra

Aviation in general is a gamble. I'm sure the UPS guys that are on furlough planned carefully and thought they won the "lottery" when they were hired.

USMCFLYR

Well if you want to go THAT deep......life is a gamble.

USMCFLYR

TheFly

Are you saying that having a degree makes you a better pilot?

JohnBurke

Once more, you're wrong on both counts.

Aren't you an RJ pilot?

JamesNoBrakes

No, he's completely correct on that one. Plenty of people work their rear end off, make good decisions, and will not end up 747 captains, or FOs for that matter. You're absolutely exceptionally lucky.