ZapBrannigan

So I'm about to hit the big "four oh" and looking at the second half of my life and my career trying to figure out what, if anything, to do. The common suggestion on a great many threads here is, "just wait for UAL, Delta, AA or FedEx" to call... but the question that is rarely asked is, "What if they never do?"

I'm not a newby at this. I was one of the first newhires at USAir in the 1999 hiring boom. After 9/11 though, with no PIC turbine I stumbled for a while, bouncing between regionals before landing at a pretty good corporate job. Over time, however, the working conditions at the corporate job have degraded to the point that I am considering a return to part 121 and possibly to a carrier that lacks a CBA, but where pilots have some control over their schedule (bidding via PBS) whereas we have no control of the schedule at the corporate department. There is a days off rotation, but it is frequently "suspended" during periods of high demand. Politics in corporate are extremely important. If you and your chief pilot don't see eye to eye, it is easy to imagine a target on your back. Everything is extremely personal and the "good ol' boys" network still weighs heavily on opportunities that arise from time to time. Each year you write a self-evaluation and are evaluated by your chief pilot to determine what, if any, raise you get. There is no pilot loss-of-medical insurance. Finally, and perhaps most importantly, the company laid off about 20% of its pilots about 3 years ago. It was done out of seniority order with the most senior pilot having been hired by the company founder and with 30 years of longevity. Those pilots are rumored to not be eligible for any recall.

That's terrifying to me because I can see it happening to me at 45, 50, or 55 years old... and then what? Uproot my family to take any flying job I can when my kid is in the middle of high school? Or is it better now to take a good 121 job where, at the very least there is a seniority system that would likely be honored? Or stay here and wait for a better opportunity or a legacy to call... but wait for how long? I'm already 40.

The suggestion that you should wait for UAL or DAL to call seems logical for a 30 year old RJ Captain. But if you look at the hundreds .. maybe thousands of people who line up at job fairs and WIA for 5 minutes with a recruiter, you realize that - even with massive retirements - competition for those positions is going to be fierce -- and not just among RJ pilots, but also pilots from other majors, corporate and charter, fractional, and of course military.

This isn't 1999, and the world has changed a lot since then. When I was hired by USAir, airlines still flew F100s and DC9-10s, and 737-200s. They had only recently parked F28s, Bac1-11s, and BAe 146s. There was a definite distinction between the feeder and the "mainline". That meant that those narrow-body 100 passenger jobs were all at the majors and, although it was competitive, there were plenty of jobs to go around. Not so today. Those narrow-body 50-100 passenger aircraft that used to be entry level at the majors are flown by large regionals. There are only 3 or 4 legacy air carriers and a whole lot of competition to get there.

How would a 40+ year old corporate pilot (light/midsize jet) who hasn't flown 121 for 10+ years look when compared with a 25 year old RJ Captain, or military pilot?

Further, how old is too old from a financial perspective? When does it no longer make financial sense to go. Even leaving this corporate department to go to the major I am considering is a dramatic pay cut for several years -- and a complex commute for at least a year until we can move to a domicile. But yet I am considering it for the control over schedule, increased days off (we only get 7 "hard" days off per month - but typically we are home 12 or so) and the protection of a seniority based system. I just don't know if I want to wake up every day in my 50s wondering if that's the day that the meal expense I went over budget on 5 years ago was going to result in my being selected during the next headcount reduction.

It's not an easy decision, and I don't expect you guys to make it for me. But I figured I would run it past you since most of the threads here seem to deal with young guys moving from regionals to majors. There has to be other people who made similar decisions in their 40s with families, a little more experience, and a lot less hair.

In your response PLEASE do not mention the specific names of any airline companies or corporate flight departments you think I might be referencing. Its a pretty small world on this side of the fence.

Thanks for your understanding and your thoughtful responses.

Bucking Bar

First bit of advice. You must not "wait for x-airline to call," they won't. If you aren't wondering whether your dream airline's HR manager is consider a restraining order to keep you and your buddies from bothering them, then you are not trying hard enough. At your age, you have to be on the front of a wave. You need to beat the door down. You already know this, but just for others who might benefit.

At your age, you should be able to fill in a resume better than the average 25 year old. IMHO anyone who understands the task of Part 91 Corporate flying respects the fact that you are dispatch / safety / compliance and sometime maintenance departments all wrapped up in one person. As you know, that is not how the airlines operate, but, to me it says you know something more about the other departments flight ops works with than candidates who don't have that sort of experience.

Second, you can run some pretty reasonable spreadsheets based on current contracts posted here on APC. Don't forget to make inflation corrections since loss of income now makes for a larger figure to make it up in real present dollar values. Also include the 401K and benefits, which tend to be MUCH MUCH better at the major carriers. For many of the senior ($125,000+) regional pilots it makes no sense to go to some majors at age 40.

In your case, I don't think you stand much to lose by looking at some majors and perhaps even overseas contract work if you are up for adventure.

I am guessing you resigned your seniority at US Air. They've got some incredibly junior Captain positions on the E190.

ZapBrannigan

I forgot to mention that my current employer knows i've interviewed elsewhere (thanks PRIA). Even though my family and I haven't made a decision, that may affect how they view my loyalty.

Yes, resigned my seniority in 2007 when I was given my final recall opportunity.

Overseas is not really an option right now with a young child.

Flyby1206

I'd jump to the airlines personally. Knowing your schedule, days off, seniority, payscale, etc are all nice stability factors.

Getting some recent Part 121 experience shows you are serious about the majors and something like DAL/UAL migfht see that more favorably.

TallFlyer

I had dinner last night with a bunch of Corp types from another board and I just have to say that I'm very impressed by some of the stuff you Corp types put up with. I was across the table from a gentleman currently on a contract for a mid sized three engine aircraft through January, with his principal picking up a large three engine aircraft after that and my pilot friend just sitting there saying "I hope he lets me fly it." Heck of a way to plan for retirement.

I can definitely hear your concern about age and what not (and feel it myself as I'm 35) but I do think you have some advantages in your position that you're undervaluing, chiefly the fact that you've already been there and done that at the major airline level. If I were you, I'd become reacquainted as quickly as possible with anyone you ever flew with in 121 and see where they're at and whether or not they could be an internal for you. Secondary to that I might hit up some job fairs as well. Point being I'd approach it as a networking challenge rather than an impressing the reviewer of resumes challenge. I've seen you around enough on other boards to know that guys whom you interact with think highly of you as a person and what you bring to the table. I'd make use of those assets.

At the same time it could be advantageous for you to use your Corp experience to look around for a different department. Since you've now been in that market segment a long time finding a job in a smaller department with a more defined path to larger equipment and few layers between you and management could be a profitable move as well. Additionally, perhaps moving to a different employer whose raison d'être isn't low prices might have some more longer term stability.

In short, I'm just a guy still flying pistons around trying to make it into the bottom floor of the regionals so take my advice with a grain of salt. My primary message to you however is I think you undersell yourself somewhat. Given what I know of your history that doesn't surprise me. Truthfully, I do it to myself as well.

Bottom line, do a search on this site and others for Albie's article "Avoiding Square Corners," get some of Cheryl Cage's aviation job search books and take them to heart, and network, network, network with the vast array of contacts you already have. I think you may be surprised. It may take a year or three, but I think it's possible.

LeineLodge

I won't reiterate what everyone above has said. You sound like you have a solid background and a level head. 40 still leaves room for a 25 year career at a 121 carrier. Translation = you are not too old.

For all its faults 121 flying is a pretty good gig, especially if you can make it to one of the better companies. You already know the drill, but consider moving to base immediately when you make it to your final destination - commuting your first year, likely junior on reserve (with a young kid) is not a pleasant way to spend your probationary year.

With the massive retirement wave that is coming, there will be some pretty good movement, and if you can get in on the front end of the wave you stand to have an excellent career even starting at 40.

If you decide that it's what you want, then get started yesterday with your networking. Most of us have played the game and are only too happy to help out guys trying to do the same thing. Never hurts to ask for help...

Finally, anything you can do to make yourself stand out in the resume stack or to an interviewer is a good thing. Start now! For example Delta loves Habitat for Humanity volunteers - get involved, even if it's only once a month or whenever you can. Find out what your target airlines want beyond a flying resume. That will be your biggest challenge at 40. They know you can fly. They will want to see how else you can impress them.

Best of luck

rvr1800

I had to make a similar decision a few years ago so I think I can offer a small bit of advice. I'll preface it with the fact that I'm younger than you and do not have kids yet so my decision was easier to make than yours. I decided to leave a 135 gig a few years back to fly at a regional for half the pay. I was home just about every night at my previous job and like I said the pay wasn't too bad, especially compared to first year regional pay. It was hard. So hard in fact that I contemplated returning to my 135 job after a year of employment at the regional. I was lucky enough to have that option and by the sounds of it you might not but couldn't hurt to ask for a leave of absense. I also went from living in base to commuting which added another stress to the new job. I came on hear to get varying opinions on returning similar to what you're doing now. I ultimately decided to stick it out and I believe my initial decision to come here was the right one. Second year pay, although still not back to the level of my previous job, is much more comfortable to live on. I believe my choice to stay helped open doors to further my career. I've seen you on other threads so you may know what I'm referring to.

From your description of your current gig I would be very hesitant to stay at a company like that. Especially now that they know you have been looking at other jobs.

It won't be easy for you or your family but we all are pretty good at adapting to change. I recommend saying yes if you get the call.

Also another piece of advice, while you and your family are adjusting to these changes you automatically lose every argument and your wife wins. Trust me it will make your life much easier.

Good luck!

jonnyjetprop

"The grass is always greener over the septic tank"

Are you really upset that you didn't make the show? As an active corporate pilot, you have cracked the code. Your next job is out there as you network with the other pilots. Are the majors really better for you? As a junior pilot, you are at the most volatile section of the seniority list. Learning from the past, you could languish at the bottom for years. Is that more of less stable than your current situation?

As someone else said, you can run spread sheets all you want, but it will be based on a guess. Maybe I'll make captain in 5 years, but it might be 15. How does a furlough fit in? I can go on and on. It's a gut level decision that only you can make. I had a friend take the call back at United, leaving a DC-10 captain slot, only to be furloughed again. He died while on furlough. For him, he had no regrets. He wanted to work for someone everyone knew. There are no guarantees in life. All of us will only know how we did in out careers when we block in for the final time and look back. Until then, everything is a crap shoot.

gr8vu

I've got an 18 year snapshot (I'm 45) of about 10 airlines and upgrades from 3-12 years that I can send you. As many have pointed out, it's accurate for about 1 minute and not worth the paper it's printed on but it puts the industry in perspective based on current pay scales. PM me if you want it.

gloopy

Ha! Good one.



I don't think that's it at all. The constant risk of furlough at any age, at any longevity, the hectic schedules of a busy corporate pilot (yeah some fly once every 3 months for a week in the Bahamas, but some tear it up like a regional schedule every day) plus the rigors of a tightrope walking self everything corporate pilot is more than just less green grass.

He raised some valid points of debate, and it almost sounds like he's made up his mind on paper to try and go, but in this industry its always very tough to give up that bird in the hand when the grass on that bird is pretty green. Wait. Anyway.

Without knowing the deets of his situation fully, I'd say based on what he's shared the answer to your last question is: the near term risks are similar, although likely higher in the short term, but quickly switch places where making the move is far less risky long term. Then there is QOL, and it sounds like making the move is, again, a hit initially, but significantly better in the long run.



I agree. It sounds like this pilot would have a very competitive resume as he would be able to point out the best of both worlds to a recruiter or an interviewer/HR. And he's already been hired at one major/legacy and left through no fault of his own. He has many feathers in his cap for sure.

I only bring this point Bar made up because it is similar enough to the OP's situation to possibly throw him off target. Camping out at a regional, even at the top, is still risky and gets riskier by the day. Your "airline" could be doing very well and still lose massive contracts over pennies in costs. The more top scale list campers a regional has, the more at risk it is to go through massive pay/benefit resetting churn and even to just disappear one day.

While someone in that situation would have the benefit of a seniority list as a cushion against some of the uncertainty, staying at 125K at age 40 when you could be making that in 2-3 years anyway, with much better retirement contributions and other benefits, is not the result of any level headed spread sheet making; its not being able/willing to take a pay cut under any circumstances, even if its for long term financial gain. I'd put that age 40 range for staying up to at least 50 and possibly beyond, and most spreadsheets would back that up even from a purely numerical standpoint.

My two cents to the OP would be that, as long as he knew what he was getting into (pay, initial QOL, etc) to work hard to make the jump ASAMFP. I also would stick to his plan of commuting the first year because its just way too easy to get burned bouncing around categories in the bottom 1-5% and even if you can avoid that somehow, robotically moving to base under any circumstance could not only mean another move or commute almost immediately, but could put you somewhere you really don't ever want to be, and that you could have avoided just by toughing it out for a year to get your bearings and a few percent under you on the list. And I think everyone needs to chill out with the hyperbole about commuting on probation. I don't know of one pilot ever canned from a major for commuting. Follow the commuting policy, erring on the side of caution when its close, and you won't have anything to worry about. Most pilots commute. Its a fact of life in the industry and its no big deal.

Yeah, the big risk is furlough because you're (your?) on the bottom. But if you could be furloughed out of seniority anyway, then you're always on the bottom anyway.

Pilot superpower network: activate. I say make the jump.